Home › Forums › Bows and Equipment › Cliff Zwickey Head
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Hi Folks,
Have you seen this head and would you consider it ethical? It’s listed on 3 Rivers. I’m happy with what I’m using, but have used Zwickey’s, especially the judos. I wouldn’t go near this thing for deer. Any thoughts? thanks, d
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Those would be illegal in Idaho.
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I looked in the book for PA and thought I remembered a no barbs rule, but found nothing of the sort. dwc
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Would not be legal in Washington state Broadheads can not be barbed or serated.
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D:
I had a similar question on a similar broadhead. Mine was more barbed, but it’s a Simmons, which is a pretty reputable company. Here is the post:
https://www.tradbow.com/members/cfmbb/messages.cfm?threadid=9A5AB3D2-1422-1DE9-ED058772DD1C43AE
As some people noted, legal here in PA, but not 100% on the ethical side. I take them out every now and again, and would use them for woodchucks (if someone posts a good recipe for them 😉 ). Hope this helps. Be well.
Alex
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Manufacturers continue to design “tools” primarily to appeal to the buyer’s eye, rather than keeping the focus on getting the job done. And aside from knife designs I can’t think of an area where it’s worse than the broadhead industry. In this case, you’d want to have a really deep hood and foam on your bow quiver to swallow the full barb tips, or it’s some bloody fingers waiting to happen. Make mine plain jane– long, narrow, with minimal bumps, lumps and other “sea anchors” to penetration.
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dwcphoto wrote: Hi Folks,
Have you seen this head and would you consider it ethical? I wouldn’t go near this thing for deer. Any thoughts? thanks, d
While I don’t necessarily consider screw-in heads “unethical” I wouldn’t touch one either. No use for them.
Or did you mean because it is barbed? Not legal in NY but I don’t see much fault. I have not seen a tendency for any well sharpened broadhead to back out. Usually the shaft snaps and the head stays inside or falls to the ground on the far side of the hide.
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I’m surprised Zwickey needed to come out with a head like that. I mean, come on!!! With the 3 time-tested excellent heads they already have, what the…?:?:
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Cliff Zwickey came up with that head in 1939. It’s a re-introduction of the first Zwickey. 😉
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Correct me if I’m wrong….but, our early bowhunting “Hero’s” like Pope & Young and Howard Hill (among others) used barbed heads during their hunting adventures and I don’t remember any negative reports generated by such exploits. They are legal here in Ohio as I made several calls to our DNR. I haven’t tried them yet as I use the Hunter’s Head, Howard Hill and Jerry Hill’s heads right now. I have taken a bunch of deer using alot of different heads. Like most here have stated: “It’s placing the arrow where it needs to be with a razor sharp edge on the broadhead blades that does the job most efficiently” However, YMMV, Just my 2 cents…….Horserod
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Yes, I’m looking at the barbed design, not the screw in aspect. I’m sure they would kill fine with a good hit, but it seems a less than good hit would result in an animal walking around with this thing sticking in. I have seen photos of older heads like that, but perhaps designs have improved, eg. the newer Zwickeys, Grizzlies, Tuffheads, and many others. dwc
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Stumpkiller wrote: Cliff Zwickey came up with that head in 1939. It’s a re-introduction of the first Zwickey. 😉
Let me rephrase: I’m surprised Zwickey had to re-introduce a head like that. (barbed) 😀
A head that is illegal in some states, and, in my opinion, unethical in all states.
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horserod wrote: Correct me if I’m wrong….but, our early bowhunting “Hero’s” like Pope & Young and Howard Hill (among others) used barbed heads during their hunting adventures and I don’t remember any negative reports generated by such exploits. They are legal here in Ohio as I made several calls to our DNR. I haven’t tried them yet as I use the Hunter’s Head, Howard Hill and Jerry Hill’s heads right now. I have taken a bunch of deer using alot of different heads. Like most here have stated: “It’s placing the arrow where it needs to be with a razor sharp edge on the broadhead blades that does the job most efficiently” However, YMMV, Just my 2 cents…….Horserod
we cannot compare ethics of today with those 90 years ago.
In my opinion, Everything that is legal is not alway ethical, and vice-versa, some illegal things are sometime very ethical. I also understand that pushing sharp rocks thru a deer’s cavity used to be the way everyone did it, and that those sharp rocks and barbed heads have sustained us for centuries. To this day it has kept a romantic, nostalgic flavor, but aren’t there so many better, more humane, surer, quicker ways to kill today, than a 70 yards shot using a barbed or stone head? That’s why I’d rather use a newer design, and keep my distance at 20 yards.8)
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AlexBugnon wrote: I also understand that pushing sharp rocks thru a deer’s cavity used to be the way everyone did it, and that those sharp rocks and barbed heads have sustained us for centuries. To this day it has kept a romantic, nostalgic flavor, but aren’t there so many better, more humane, surer, quicker ways to kill today, than a 70 yards shot using a barbed or stone head? That’s why I’d rather use a newer design, and keep my distance at 20 yards.8)
Alex,
Can’t argue the 20 yards. I’m up to about 10. BUT…
Just to keep the grey matter active, I pose a rebuttal to your statement above (especially the part in bold). I might be working “backwards” but I started with the X-Bow / Compound, went traditional, and my long-term goal is to take my game with 100% hand-made (my hands) gear (ok, the feathers would be bird-made and sinew/string/glue might be ordered, but you get the idea).
Now, as far as “better”, there are many places on the web and in print that you can find statements like: “at 30 angstrom (i.e., 3 nanometers; that’s three billionth of a meter) obsidian is much sharper than even the sharpest steel blade…” 😉
This is from: http://averyremoteperiodindeed.blogspot.com/2011/03/obsidian-blades-as-surgical-tools.html but there are many other sources.
I can personally attest to how sharp this black stuff is. I am VERY new to flint-knapping. I started playing with some obsidian and made one of the ugliest arrowheads you could ever imagine. After cleaning up, I went in and washed my hands. I was quite surprised when my hands were stinging in several places. On closer exam, I found that I had multiple small cuts all over my pals and fingers. I never felt a single one until I knew they were there.
There is no doubt that a steel blade with a 3:1 ratio, eFOC arrow, etc fired from a well-tuned bow at a distance the archer is very comfortable with will produce a clean, ethical kill. But I would (and I guess have) argue the it is any “better” than what Mother Nature has had billions of years to perfect. IMHO of course. Be well.
Alex
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lyagooshka wrote:
Alex,
Can’t argue the 20 yards. I’m up to about 10. BUT…
Just to keep the grey matter active, I pose a rebuttal to your statement above (especially the part in bold). I might be working “backwards” but I started with the X-Bow / Compound, went traditional, and my long-term goal is to take my game with 100% hand-made (my hands) gear (ok, the feathers would be bird-made and sinew/string/glue might be ordered, but you get the idea).
Now, as far as “better”, there are many places on the web and in print that you can find statements like: “at 30 angstrom (i.e., 3 nanometers; that’s three billionth of a meter) obsidian is much sharper than even the sharpest steel blade…” 😉
This is from: http://averyremoteperiodindeed.blogspot.com/2011/03/obsidian-blades-as-surgical-tools.html but there are many other sources.
I can personally attest to how sharp this black stuff is. I am VERY new to flint-knapping. I started playing with some obsidian and made one of the ugliest arrowheads you could ever imagine. After cleaning up, I went in and washed my hands. I was quite surprised when my hands were stinging in several places. On closer exam, I found that I had multiple small cuts all over my pals and fingers. I never felt a single one until I knew they were there.
There is no doubt that a steel blade with a 3:1 ratio, eFOC arrow, etc fired from a well-tuned bow at a distance the archer is very comfortable with will produce a clean, ethical kill. But I would (and I guess have) argue the it is any “better” than what Mother Nature has had billions of years to perfect. IMHO of course. Be well.
Alex
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Alex,
I hear you and agree with you. ( In theory and in the best of the best situations :-)) I am only coming from my own limited experience with stone heads. I once made 3 cane arrows with hunting-sharp obsidian (given to me), and could never get as much penetration in my targets as with broadheads. I also have a few “primitive” hunting videos where I’ve seen zero pass thru kills using stone heads, thus my questioning their use in today’s state of bowhunting, where everything is put under a microscope by non hunters hoping to find some dirt.
As far as barbed heads, as a relative newcomer to bowhunting (10 years) My question is: In case of a very poor hit, like neck, butt, or in the back, Isn’t it next to impossible for the arrow to come back out and allow the deer to heal the wound?
Alex
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Alex,
Well understood. I was just poking the skunk and comparing broadhead to broadhead. Sharpness is but one of many factors. I just hate to let a potential for conflict go to waste. 😈
Seriously though, I agree 100% One main reason I didn’t go directly into primitive is that I need to learn to “hunt”. I know how to shoot. That’s not the issue. But if I go to a home-made self bow with 40#-45# draw and woodies with obsidian tips, I will NOT even try to take an animal over 10 yards, and even then only under perfect conditions. It’s just that simple for me. I would much rather go home thinking I “could have” than going home thinking I “shouldn’t have”.
Like I said, just poking the skunk a bit. Getting bored in the off season. Be well. 😆
Alex
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I agree with Alex….:roll: Both of you have good points,but Mr.Bugnon has the greater good of the sport in consideration for all of us, and I am leaning toward his side of this issue. Being under the proverbial microscope is something we all must consider, even with our setting of personal limitations with our chosen tools……for the greater good of the our lifestyle choices. And I back you,Alex of Allentown,Pa., for your right to hunt with that primitive gear and trust that you’ll remain ethical in every instance. Wayne
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Strait-Aero wrote: Both of you have good points…
Ha Ha!!! 😆 😆 😆
(BTW: I read you Lima Charlie. Ethics and respect for the quarry come first.)
Be well,
Alex (from Allentown)
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lyagooshka wrote: Alex,
Like I said, just poking the skunk a bit. Getting bored in the off season. Be well. 😆
Alex
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Me too!!! 😀
take care
Alex
PS: Driving thru Allentown on my way to Pittsburgh Friday if the snow isn’t too bad. I’ll be thinking of you!:lol:
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Wave on your way. If you get stuck or the weather’s too bad, stop by and wait it out. Be well.
Alex
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Alex brings out good points.
I enjoy reading the old bowhunting articles and books and one I came across of a “name” in bowhunting history told how he used all 12 arrows from his back-quiver shooting at a distant buck and went back to camp to refill his quiver then fired six or seven more at the buck – at a distance I wouldn’t attempt with my flintlock rifle!
Ethics are like suits and hats. They change with the times.
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Stumpkiller wrote: Alex brings out good points.
I enjoy reading the old bowhunting articles and books and one I came across of a “name” in bowhunting history told how he used all 12 arrows from his back-quiver shooting at a distant buck and went back to camp to refill his quiver then fired six or seven more at the buck – at a distance I wouldn’t attempt with my flintlock rifle!
Ethics are like suits and hats. They change with the times.
You make an extremely excellent point. I remember several years ago when I bought the Chet Stevenson book. By the time I finished the second or third story I cringed a bit. But then I remembered it’s not fair to judge hunting exploits from 80 years ago by today’s ethics. Once I conceded that point, I enjoyed the book immensely.
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Stumpkiller wrote:
Ethics are like suits and hats. They change with the times.
Such a great quote, Stumpk !
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OK, I was biting my lip, but it started to hurt, so I decided to reply. Here goes…
“Ethics are like suits and hats. They change with the times.” Or “But then I remembered it’s not fair to judge hunting exploits from 80 years ago by today’s ethics.”
Yes, BUT… Is it fair to give a pass to the commercial hunters of 100+ years ago, who almost ruined hunting and wildlife altogether, simply because it was their “ethics” in that time?
Truth be told, there are many things that are ethical, and always have been. I am not preaching a religion with this, just using it as an example, but “Thou shall not kill, steal, etc” has been around for a while. Seems pretty ethical. Can’t really see a time when it wasn’t. Doesn’t mean it was always followed, or corrupt people didn’t try to twist it to suit their means, but still, a pretty good track record for longevity.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if it feels wrong today; it was probably wrong back then. Ergo, it’s not that it was ethical then but isn’t now. To kill for “fun”, to waste (taking antlers / furs and leaving the rest to rot and the like) [IMHO] cannot be justified simply by a date and time. This includes questionable shots and leaving animals to suffer.
I must add that I do understand the point you gentlemen are making, but I just don’t want to slip into the “I’m just a product of my time…” It’s a short step from that to, “I was only following orders”. Be well.
Alex
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What Alex is speaking of is called “cultural relativism” in psycho-speak, which in American English refers to a lame philosophical approach popular among a few years ago among some ethics scholars and other apologists. The argument generally comes down to: “You’d have to have lived back then, or be a member of that culture, in order to make valid ethical judgments on their behavior.” Sounds good on the surface but, as Alex stated, reduces us to placing all value judgments and ethical considerations within the fragile glass beacon of a particular culture in a particular time and place … which in turn not only places Culture A’s standards against Culture B’s, etc., but also denies the existence of any beyond-cultural absolutes in the right/wrong category, which is illogical and easily disproven, to wit: Cultures and their specific values come and go, but every sane human is at least vaguely aware, on some level, that certain behaviors just aren’t right, even if the dominant culture at the time endorses them. (The extreme example here is Nazism as the “dominant culture” and the French vichi’s reaction to Nazi occupation vs. the French resistance’s reaction.) Or, closer to home, we can think of it like this: Certainly, in the old days many bowhunters, some who now are considered founding fathers of our sport (mostly, like today, because they wrote about or filmed their exploits), took really long risky shots and didn’t apparently give a hoot when wounded animals escaped. And that, crazy-long shots, was only one element among many actions considered “acceptable” back then, but which most of us are revolted by now and in many cases laws have since criminalized. This untidy history really complicates our desire to celebrate heroes. Indeed. But even as “the group” behaved this way, there were shining exceptions who resisted sinking to the crude group level but rather rose risen mere passing acceptance and answered to higher “universal, inner-driven” self-expectations. Aldo Leopold is a glorious example for his time. Locally accepted ways of judging right and wrong in particular places and times serve free-thinkers not as behavior to be emulated or overlooked “because everyone is doing it that way,” but rather as starting points to figuring things out for themselves and attempting to raise the norm. So yes, we do need to take into account “what everyone is doing” or once did … while avoiding the trap of totally excusing inexcusable behavior. IMHO of course. 😛
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Well put,Dave. :idea::wink:
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Dave,
Thanks for your post in this thread. I think it’s important to consider and honor our forefathers’ contributions. It’s also important to honor our sport, which the forefathers’ obviously loved, by continually improving the way we do things, not to fit in with our times, but attempting to make it truly better. Much of what this group is dedicated to is no passing fade. We look for a core understanding of what is good for nature and in that what is good for our sport.
I learned countless good things from my father, but he would be disappointed if I wouldn’t try to learn from his mistakes as well as from my own. best, dwc
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DWC,
Back to the “point” 🙄 , and I promise I will mark this dead horse beaten to the fullest as well. The broadhead has the following in bold at the bottom of the page:
•May not be legal in some states. Check with your state DNR
So… Just “pointing” it out. [getting real bad here 😕 ]
Be well.
Alex
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Alex,
Not a problem. For me it was mainly for ethical aspects, as is pointed out here continually much of what is legal we, as traditional archers, don’t consider ethical. This head is found on the shelf of a traditional archery seller and a terrific one at that.
By the way, this post was not meant to single out 3Rivers, so my apologies if it has in a negative way. 3Rivers has been very good to me over the years.
I’m really pointing to a head offered for hunting and asking what do you think of this? I already know what I think and perhaps could get either verification or new information.
Thanks, Frogger! dwc
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