Home › Forums › Friends of FOC › Carbon vs. Hardwood
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So I’m bored, raining and blowing sideways here in Kodiak, slowly cleaning up from Christmas, too bad all the stuff Santa bought me has to be used outside. So, anyway, bored, got my mind to wandering, making me think to Dr. Ash’s stuff about hardwoods and carbons. IIRC, he showed that Hardwood held up better than carbon, now is today’s carbon any tougher now? I know that FOC is much easier to play with via carbon, and is a good reason to go that route, but if you’re main objective is structural integrity….would hardwood be the way to go? I built a set of grizzly sitcks, they shot great, but snapped at the back of the brass insert everytime I hit anything like a tree. My POC held up better to the exact same trees.
Just a conversation topic I haven’t read yet.
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Sounds like you need to dig up Doc Ed’s stuff on INTERNAL FOOTING carbon..
Each was hand made, but he took hardwood dowels and made a parabolic taper (not straight taper) and inserted them behind the brass insert and slow expoxied them inside the shaft…they took 1/4ing deflection shots on steel and concrete from heavy bows and trashed tips but never the arrow…
The parabolic taper slowly bent and were (I THINK) 12″ long or 10″ anyway and allowed the force to spread out over a longer area… thus bending with the arrow some and absorbing the impact…
he and others tried varied mediums to make a commercially available product, but they gave up… each one hand made was the only way… talk about getting emotionally attached to your arrow if you lose it! 😯
But it made them near indestructible! If you’re really bored, you might try to dig it up… I don’t know if it’s on his archives here, but I read it on another site some many years back…Interesting, but I loose way more than i destroy!
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I just glue a 1 1/2 inch section of old aluminum arrow over the end of the shaft so that it lines flush with the insert face.
Never had a carbon shaft fail that was set up in this way.
But if you are bored, you’ll hate carbon shafts. Boring. Always work, no variation. Easy to set up. Always predictable terminal performance. BORING!!!
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Steve,
I call those “over-footing”. I do it a lot. I started searching out lighter gpi shafting so I can load up the front without shooting rebar weight arrows… they’re usually target shafts, so thinner walls and the over-footing helps a LOT—- just as you say!
I was even doing them on standard GT 5575’s for a few years… impressive results. But–not foolproof.
EX#1: Overshot a gator target and hit a solid stone wall behind it… demolished the tip, blew out the nock, but the shaft was FINE! that was a direct flat on hit. Over-footing saved the day! kept the insert from being driven up inside the shaft and ruining it too!
EX#2: Later, I hit a glancing blow on a rock up NJ shoot snuggled among a ton of rocks, and it bent the tip… had to wait to get home to unscrew it it was so badly bent…
Since I used hot melt, I sweat out the insert. Turned out the brass 100 gr. insert was ALSO bent! 😯 Never saw that before… Then I sweat off the over-footing.
I put a ID size steel rod inside (phillips screw driver actually) inside the shaft and under a bright light applied a bit of pressure. I had a 1/2″ long crack up the shaft wall clear thru!
I’m pretty sure with a 100 gr. brass insert hot melted inside and the 2″ (my choice) 2117 over-footing glued on outside, extending beyond the crack, I’d never have had a failure, but I’ve also seen graphic pics of guys where a carbon arrow blew up and went thru the back of their bow hand on release…:?:x
I cut it off and gave it to a short draw friend! Only time an over footing failed, and it was a minor failure with a catastrophic bend in the whole brass insert! Just Fyi
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Hmmm…interesting question, Abel.
“out of the box?, eh?”
I guess depending on type of hard wood, perhaps “out of the box” you could say they’re tougher—maybe, depending on type of wood, and diameter, but then, the trade off is that woodies are going to have grain run out, need to be straightened, sealed, apply finish, spined, weighed, culled of out-of-spec shafts (buy at least 1000 or pay premium for previously “weighed and spined” and then check again), then grind nock and point tapers (special tools for hardwood), straighten again… fletch, crest/crown, and shoot!
Or cut up some appropriate alum scrap arrows, put a long taper on one end with a belt sander or whatever, chamfer, glue on with either slow set epoxy or brown hot melt, put inserts in, fletch and shoot.
I do tend to tune each carbon out of a dozen cause the ones I can afford do have some variance on a couple in a given dozen, but I don’t have a spine tester and don’t want one….
My carbons I’ve been shooting for several years now. I loose more than I break. I tried ASH…great hardwood…tough as nails and crooked as a politician! Terrible grain run out. Heat, straighten, seal, heat, straighten again, finish, on and on and on… but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Good thing we don’t all like the same stuff or it’d drive the price thru the roof and I couldn’t buy anything anymore!
Want to avoid boredom? Make some Cane arrows you harvest from the edge of a swamp, put in bundles, dry for a year, then heat, straighten, weigh, spine, sand off nodes, straighten again, re-spine, seal, straighten, put in hardwood dowel ends to create your point and nock tapers… do self nocks, haft on your points with sinew and pitch… you won’t be bored no mo! I hear they’re tough as iron!
I had some 23/64yj RRA heavy (596 ht raw shafts) cedar that I bounced off trees forever just like ash… but a PnA to find 23/64th heads!
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Everything Doc says sounds true to me. I started with aluminum arrows as a kid, and when I was paying my own way, I moved to carbon. I tried wood arrows for exactly 1 season, back when I didn’t know FOC from COB, or any other combination of letters. Sent 3 arrows over the backs of deer, and slipped one through a deer and 3 inches in the dirt on the other side.
Didn’t think nutin of it. Stuck with the carbons cause I had bought the woods and had nothing invested but cash.
This winter I’ve taken to making wood arrows, from scratch. Start with a board, end up with a bunch of arrows. So far it has been fun and I can’t say I see much difference between the performance of the wood and carbon arrows. And for deer, I don’t think it matters much. But we’ll see.
We’ll see how long the fun of making arrows lasts. And we’ll see how they really do on deer. I might be singing a different tune next year at this time.
When it comes to big critters like elk and moose, I just can’t say what’s the right thing to do. Maybe I’ll feel differently in a year.
But for deer and small game, asking what’s better: carbon or hardwood, is a bit like asking whether blonds or brunettes are better. My answer to that is: yes!
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I’ve had great luck with both carbons and hardwoods re not breaking behind the head, which is something I’ve had all softwoods I’ve tested do on a regular basis. If you just want a good solid heavy arrow, hardwoods are generally reliable. But if you want most of that heavy-arrow weight up front for good EFOC, carbons are your only choice. I shot Grizzly STicks years ago and did have some breakage up front. Since then I’ve used nothing but good old cheap reliable Carbon Express Heritage (250 shafts behind 450 up front) with no breakage in testing and only one breakage on an elk, years ago, where about half the shaft was protruding from the off-side after hitting ribs in and out and it broke mid-shaft when the animal ran close to a tree. I recovered both arrow halves and elk. My first two pass-through shots ever on elk were with a compressed hickory shaft and a 125-grain two-blade head (killed both elk with the same arrow and head), weighing 843 grains total if I recall. The third elk I shot with that arrow, hit the scapula and the head broke in half, the arrow fell out with on an inch or so penetration, and I never saw that bull again. That was when I learned to used a heavy sturdy head as well as a sturdy shaft. Like a spacecraft launch, if a single element of the system fails, the system and mission will also fail. For now, I’m shooting only carbons for elk, much as I would prefer to shoot wood.
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Strongest hardwoods I have tried dont have run out and have a built in footing in 11/32 about an inch long on the point end of a 5/16 shaft which also spines over 65#. This allows me to use large and heavy broadheads and accomplish my FOC out of the box. That’s all I have to say about that.:D
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Mr. FW,
That is most interesting! No run out. 😯 Footed to 11/32 and tapered to 5/16.
Amazing. Only thing close to that I’ve seen were old RRA 17/64 tapered to 5/16, old standing fire killed cedar, which came in around 585-595 gr. raw shaft at 29.5″ Ash I tried early in my career back to trad, had run out so badly you couldn’t keep em straight, if you could GET them straight!
Curious what FOC you get out of such a rig? What draw weight, length arrow, and total weight, point weight, etc.??
Very interesting. That sounds so intriguing…:)
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Kevin sent me a half dozen Red Balau. They are 11/32 footed and 5/16 shafts. They were spined at around 60#, I think they were in the 550 range for grains. They were easy to straighten and seal. In full length, with just slipping 300gr heads on them they had 20.7 EFOC. I hope to get to shooting some of them tonight to see how they perform. But I figure, as I cut them down to tune, the FOC should go up and the arrow get shorter.
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Doc. I’ll try and send some end grain pictures to better show the differences between North American softwoods with strsight grain and South American wood with an interlocked grain.
From left to right: Mahogany, red balau, Doug fir, POC, yellow cedar (old growth). The first two have ‘interlocked’ grain with no run out…the other three are ‘straight’ grain.
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Thanks, Abel. Way under my foc and apparently, a bit shorter than I need.
I can’t seem to find how to check screen handles with real names, so I’ll stick with FW… 😕
FW,
People used to make furniture out of Mahogany, but it was awfully “soft” for furniture and would dent/chip easily… neat pic of grain though.
I read one post here where a guy hates to use tropical woods for his bows as he feels he’s contributing to deforestation of the Rain Forest… interesting view… Way I loose arrows, something to think about, perhaps….
I’ve seen, shot and friends used the “hex shafting” in one wood type that escapes memory right this minutes… that stayed really straight and took some nice side impact. but hard to get FOC up on it.
Footing and a larger dia. would surely help UP the FOC, but perhaps not to where I’ve got my system dialed into with my 29.5″ arrows and 28.5″ draw… My arrow shafts spine about 80# (.340) for my 47# bow…yeah, bigfoot bows are that capable of generating that level of energy even from light draws…at least at my draw length! 47.5# at my full draw! Course, I have 300 gr. up front and still keep my total weight under 600 (about 585) and 28% FOC or there abouts.
Very good picture and great explanation… never heard of that sort of grain pattern…interesting! Thanks!!!
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Love that picture of your bow btw. Any exotic wood in that?…lol. That’s ok most exotic woods imported are screened for being on an endangered and whether they are environmentally friendly. What I buy are farm raised.:wink:
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FW,
I just read that where a guy pointed out about S. American exotics. I’ve had that bow a while…it’s waterfall bubinga and bocote. So I have no clue as to those woods country of origin.
Endangered wood is one thing… deforestation of the rain forest is a whole other box of kittens. Course at my age, I probably don’t need to worry about enough O2 on the planet earth till I croak… from the defoliation of the rain forests…
And again, it was a passing comment, not an admonition. Just one of those things where someone I respect commented and it STUCK in my head… where things usually are somewhat transient at this stage! 😯
Beautiful shafting!
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Deforestation? I make arrow shafts one at a time..lol. if only I made that many. That’s why tree farms are important to support. They provide sustainable lumber for legal hardwood shops. Of course I’m sure you are aware of the process of hardwood harvesting and the legal ramifications for lumber companies in this country that don’t comply.
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After a few private correspondences with Kevin at FW, I stand corrected.
His woods are not those what would be harvested from SA rainforests, but are of the species from there grown elsewhere for the purpose of harvesting.
Long growing season right there till harvest! 😯
For those who enjoy wood arrows he seems to have a handle on some good, hard, straight, tough stuff unknown to me when I got my tail kicked working with woods and made the jump to very, very old, old, wood in the form of carbonized trees! :roll:8)
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Now these are unfletched bareshaft tuned
Red Balua 5/16″ shaft, 11/32″ foot. 65lb spine
@29.25″ AMO, 500gr
with knock and 300gn point I got 20%FOC
Mahogany 11/32″ tapered to 5/16″ 68lb spine
@29″ AMO Aprox 510gr
with Knock and 300grn point, 21%FOC
Now I just gotta go do some durability testing
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Excellent results Abel…
That much front weight and still only 20/21%??? I have that much front weight and am in the 28%, but I think we’re talking mine are way longer arrows and a LOT heavier spine (old wood ie, carbon)
Bet they’ll be hell-for-tough!
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Doc Nock wrote: After a few private correspondences with Kevin at FW, I stand corrected…)
This is an interesting topic. I’d like to hear what you learned… It is my understanding that it takes a hundred years or more for teak, mahogany, ipe to reach commercial value.
It is also my understanding that what happens is that the rain forest is cleared, then the land is grazed till grass won’t grow, then it is planted in a “tree farm”. And companies claim their wood is tree farm raised as long as they plant as many acres of trees as they clear rain forest.
Rain forest and tree farms do not have the same ecological value.
Here’s a quote from an article: “Twenty years later, the plantation is one of the most sustainable tree farms in the country. Thousands of mahogany trees that the family planted stand tall and sturdy, but it may take five to 10 more years before they mature, and another 30 years before they reach full commercial potential, Mario Jr. says.”
Adds up to 60 years before farm produces wood. There were no farms 60 years ago. Thus no tropical woods like those mentioned above are really farm raised.
Here’s the article : http://business.inquirer.net/15361/money-grows-from-tree-farming
Not trying to have a battle, just want to learn more and understand better.
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Able,
CONGRATULATIONS! If you got yourself a SAS in the weight range you presented earlier when we talked, you might find you need pretty stiff arrows to harness the energy. Kirk leaves NOTHING on the table or in hand shock…he’s anal about vertical and lateral stability, pre-load and other terms I’m barely conversant on… suffice it to say that I’m now shooting a 47# SAS LB with 2x carbon limbs and… at 47.5# at my 28.5″, I’m shooting .340 carbon, individually tuned, but I like my arrows a bit longer to give BH clearance so I’m a touch over 30″ w/ 300 up front!
Steve, shot you a PM, brother… hope it made sense!
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Steve. Actually after WWII many islands of the South Pacific were replanted with mahogany in tree farms for replenishing after the effects of warfare and bombing campaigns. Those trees are being harvested today. Many ‘green’ publications present partial truths.
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I haven’t found anything quite as tough as good old American Rock Maple. It’s actually difficult to break while stumping.
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ssumner1 wrote: I am seriously considering wood. It may very be purely for aesthetic purposes, but I think it will be the way to go, especially if we can use hard woods that can last quite a while to the beating of stumping.
When I was first runng the Red Balu’s I got from FW I broke 2, since then I haven’t busted a one. Really good tuff shafts
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When I was first runng the Red Balu’s I got from FW I broke 2, since then I haven’t busted a one. Really good tuff shafts
I am working with him now for some mahogany arrows. I plan on sticking with them. I believe they are affordable, and he really seems to care about making the best for his customers.
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