Home › Forums › Bows and Equipment › Can someone explain this?
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When I first stepped into the relm of traditional archery, I did everything “wrong”. I basically had no idea what I was doing and everything went against the books. I switched over from a extremely breif stay in the compound feild, when I realized that I needed more of a challenege. I trained with my 40 pound Galaxy Mars recurve bow, it was a hand me down that is forever old, so old in fact that there is not very much info on the company out there. I had no special arrows, just the precicly cut carbon shafts that I had from my compound, exactly cut to 29″1/2. When I drew back the back of the broadhead would touch the riser, actually limiting my draw aproximatly 1/8 of an inch. The arrows were Easton Explorer shafts 60/75 spine, with plastic vanes. They were armed with a replaceable three blade 100 grain thunderhead!(9.8 gpi) This arrow system is approximatly 444 grains including the broadhead and fletching and inserts!? The very first time I stepped into the woods as a traditional bowhunter I was presented with a 22 yard quartering away shot on a 5 year old buck!! The shot was absolutely perfect, entered that sweet spot where the liver overlaps the lungs, the arrow went in and hit the liver and both lungs, and was 6 inches shy of a complete pass through. He ran 50 yards and expired. This all happened when I was 15 years old. My question in all this is, why was my arrow system successful, was it luck, or am I just missunderstanding Dr. Ashbys studies? Because from what I have read that is not a very good arrow system. I am unable to test the FOC because I no longer have a full shaft from back then, I have several broken ones left over, but that doesnt help? I was just wondering if anyone here could explain, because my system has not changed that much, I shoot Beeman ICS bowhunters that total 443 grains with a FOC of . . . 9.5 round about, launched out of a 55 pound take down?
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Greatreearcher wrote: My question in all this is, why was my arrow system successful,
For the same reason folks have been shooting through whitetails for decades with similar setups: because it works. 😉
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I thought that my arrow system was and still is to light?
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I don’t think anybody will dispute the fact that most of us have been killing big game animals with some crazy set-ups and some not so crazy set-ups for a long time. I am old enough to remember when there were no compound bows, nor were there synthetic arrows. We all were just bowhunters. Much of Dr. Ashby’s data has been intuitive with traditional archers for a long time. As an example, look at Howard Hill’s broadhead design. A 3:1 ratio head with plenty of weight to it. A quartering away shot, one of my favorites, is primarily a soft-tissue penetration issue. One does not need a 600+gr arrow, 20+% FOC, and a single bevel broadhead to kill efficiciently with this shot. I think what most of us who ascribe or gravitate to Ashby’s data are those that are interested in the results when things go bad. What I mean by this is simply the fact that should your wayward arrow strike the humerous instead of the rib it is comforting to know you have a good chance of penetrating said bone and reaching the vitals. Thus we avoid wounding the animal and harvesting it as cleanly as possible.
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Greatreearcher wrote: I thought that my arrow system was and still is to light?
Most bowyers I know recommend going no lighter in arrow weight than 8gpp. You’re right around that mark, so you should be good in that regard.
On another tread, Steve and I were discussing how for decades bows pulling poundage in the forties (forty to forty-nine pounds) were standard for whitetail hunters. Your arrows would be 10 gpp for a bow in the middle of that weight range, which would make them normal weight for that time. Deer aren’t any tougher to penetrate now than they were a generation ago.
If you feel your arrow is too light, then it would probably be a good idea to increase its weight. The last thing you should want is any hint of doubt in your mind at the moment you’re about to drop the string on an animal. Confidence goes a long way in this pastime. Just make sure you don’t substitute doubt about your arrow weight for similar doubt about your accuracy due to a slower, more pronounced arrow trajectory.
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In my opinion, Doc’s studies does not say anything much about anything else not “working” regarding soft tissue hits.
A multitude of animals have been taken with low bow poundage and without much of any attention paid to the setup except good arrow flight, a sharp head and arrow placement.
The area of your (congratulations by the way for back then)first hit on a whitetail is probably the softest area of a deer’s body and why quartering away shots have always been held by most to be the most deadly.
That shot goes in behind the bones of the rib cage into the liver then chest cavity where the major obstructions are vital organs only.
While “only” 40lbs your long draw also added to the capabilites of your bow and your arrow weight was very close to the LONG time rule of thumb of 10 grains per pound of draw weight.
Reread Dr. Ashby’s report. The bulk of it is founded on “what if you didn’t get a perfect arrow placement” and “What would your arrow set up do THEN should heavy bones (and even huge areas like a ham) be contacted on entry”.
While a deer CAN be KILLED with about ANY legal bow weight, broadhead manufacture and a rainbow of extremes in arrow weights, the shot placement of which they would do so its mandatory that no heavy bones were hit and in some cases no long length of body tissue needs to be passed through.
YES, “Arrow Placement” is the biggest killer of all. Bar none.
The Ashby Report is simply a huge collection of results of shots with a huge collection of arrow weights, broadheads, shaft sizes and types and of course, head types, material used making them, hardness of them etc etc…….and…. which, if any of the above WOULD penetrate enough for a lethal shot if bone WAS hit. This paragraph alone does not do the report justice but….IMHO is the bulk of the report in a “nutshell”.
If comfortable and confident that you will never hit anything but ribcage going in and out of a deer, regardless of what the deer does at the shot, or any other variable then no or little information within the study is probably going to tweak your interest.
Each and every year we all can find deer “well harvested” with great shots hitting nothing but rib cage and vitals within, and the deer succumbed rapidly and humanely. When ONLY considering perfect or close to perfect hits, like the one you described, it’s almost a moot point because every legal, sharp and tuned set up in the world would have killed that deer with that shot placement. Every single one.
Elsewhere in this same forum on this same site is a thread I just started on my own testing. Within it I HOPE to make the point that while a full blown arrow suggestion of recommended weight, head type, bevel, and EFOC IS FINE, a person can ALSO take each factor *individually* and in using even only a few of them STILL increase penetration capabilities of their arrow.
Case in point. WHAT IF on that very same shot you described above, the deer moved or the shot was just poor and the HAM of the deer was centered???? Would the set up that worked so well taking that same buck with a well centered shot STILL have provided you with a lethal shot and short recovery??
Each of us, individually, must look at those variables and choose or not choose to use them.
If only ONE point is made by my post here, let it be this one……Doctor Ed Ashby does not say nor has ever said in any of his writings that ANYTHING is “incapable” of killing…. UNLESS it was followed by “because it failed to penetrate when it hit bone”.
If I were in your shoes and was looking back at that shot I would be considering several “what if” scenarios and asking myself what would have happened then? WOULD penetration have been enough?
Anyone and I do mean anyone, believing that they will never have an “iffy” hit, regardless of how good a shot they are, then they have either NOT read posts like David Petersen’s recent elk hunt and how penetration was gained NOR have they read, even recently, the posts on the two other larger traditonal sites where already several deer shot were hard to find or were not found at all.
As for what I PERSONALLY FEEL? I feel those that don’t worry about penetration shouldn’t do so but I will bet you there WILL COME A TIME when you are going to say…
“Dang…….if I had gotten more penetration, I would have killed that animal”
Believe me, I’ve heard thosse words uttered more times than I care to even make a venture guessing and YES, they also said “IF I had made a better shot..etc etc”.
In my own decision making I feel I have more control over making my arrows penetrate, regardless of all but the worst of the worst hits, much more so that I have control over the animals reaction at the shot, weather effect on shots, unseen branches,etc, and I also have to admit I am human and CAN MISS.
My “holy grail” search for MY perfect arrow will be one that FIRST OF ALL, I can shoot as accurately as I am capable……other than that, it will be a compilation of EFOC, Grain weight, arrow composition, and head choice that gives me all an arrow can give.
You CAN’T have too much penetration…but you CAN HAVE too little…. it all depends on those “what if” shots happening.
I will support any archer, shooting any set up that feels that is his best set up. All of us make our own choices in life in every aspect of our lives. I must also add that as in every other aspect of our lives, that person must be prepared to live with the results of that choice.
A prime example is yours truly!
It is MY CHOICE to use Dr.Asbhy’s report to compile an arrow set up I “feel” is better “for me” in a lighter weight class than the recommended one.
That COULD BE a mistake! There may come a time when I SAY, “dang, I would have killed that buck if I had more penetration”.
If I could wave a magic wand and allow each and every one of us to have perfect shots, perfectly still animals, in perfect conditions, bet the ranch I would!!
Since I cannot, I am here attempting to use my own limited experiences of my own shots, and hundreds and hundreds of other deer I’ve seen taken over the past 40 years and am doing my own testing using Doc’s work in perhaps a manner some “Ashby Diehards” might not approve of.
It bears repeating IMO. ALL of the Ashby Report was compiled to offer YOU information, to let YOU decide what YOU need or do not. I will wager that your own choices will change over time and experience.
Need an example? Why is it that you NOW shoot a 55lb bow when the 40lb ALSO used in conjuntion with the discussed arrow set up on this same successful shot?
Every single one of us has read AND hear that it is recommended that…”you shoot as much bow as you can ACCURATELY handle”. For what reason????
MAXIMUM PENETRATION.
Today, with thanks to Dr. Ed Asbhy WE HAVE at our fingertips ways to do just that, simply by using another means of getting it.
Choose for yourself and your needs. No one will condemn you for doing so. It is your hunt and any risks taken or not taken are your own.
Forgive me ONCE AGAIN for a long winded, soap box narration.
Poorly hit and lost animals are FAR more common that lots believe and are a big black mark against the hunters of the world, regardless of weapon.It is my belief we as bowhunters HAVE the information and capabilities to RADICALLY reduce those numbers AND provide for greater consistancy in faster more humane kills…….even IF we as hunters since we ARE human, “oops”.
God Bless,
Steve Sr. -
Geeze, what a good thread, based on a good honest question. All of you, in my opinion, answered well and honestly out of personal experience. Mudfish said it well in fewest words. Steve Sr. said it in most beautiful detail. All that’s left for me to say is, to paraphrase the Doc, “We can never be overprepared.” Tree, check out some of the posts about successful hunts in recent weeks using an Ashby setup that wouldn’t have been successful otherwise. For those hunting only whitetails and smaller pigs, you sure don’t need the full nine yards. But at the least I’d go with the Doc’s advice on broadheads (two-blades, long and narrow and hard) and high FoC. That way your arrow can still be overall pretty light (again, we’re talking smallish whitetails and pigs) but have great penetration and bone-resistance; a reasonable compromise I don’t know if Doc would agree to but I think he would. There are so many variations to consider! Basically, assuming you’re hunting “light big game,” you can usually get away with Ashby-inefficient arrow setups. So, do you want to stick with that and hope for “perfect arrow flight and shot placement,” or increase your arrow horsepower a bit and feel confident if (a) buck fever prompts you to take less than a “perfect” shot, and/or (b) something goes wrong, beyond your self-control’s control (that is, as or after you release). I’ve frankly found out I shoot better with heavier arrows and it takes only a concentrated bit of practice to rewire the hand-eye-brain connection to the slightly increased trajectory. And the increased accuracy of EFoC arrows is simply amazing. To answer your own questions to your own best satisfaction, I’d suggest getting a reasonable Ashby set-up and giving it a try. After that, rather than asking you’ll be in a position to speak from experience. Dave
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Thank you all, great advice and comfort. I really have not had much experience with big game and arrow penetration, I could definatly tell you all about small game and arrow penetration. The reason I questioned my system is because I am getting ready to try and harvest another whitetail or two and wanted to go into the feild with a lethal arrow system. I have been practicing my butt off and I feel very confident I will make a good shot, only time will tell. When I get some spare cash I will experiment with other arrow weights again, I have had very many different arrows from 11 gpi to 7 gpi, and different thicknesses. I will revisit some of my favorites of the heavier weights soon! Thanks again!
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