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One of the things that draws me to traditional archery is the thought of a pure, less complicated way of doing what I love. After spending a couple or days looking over the Ashby reports I felt like that girl with the spinning head from the Exorcist movie. I’ve got the B.H. Tappered Shaft and 650gr min. wt. down, but its the fletching size/type/number of/and the weak spin/stiff spine with what center shot/ Foc, EFOC, ulrtra Efoc/ wood vs. carbon/ adapter type and weight/ screwin vs. glue on. I was reading that Dave Peterson likes 680gr with 26% Foc but it sounds like you can’t copy from someone that knows because it depens on sooooo many things. Anyway my dream bow is a Blackwidow PA II 58″ at 57-60# my draw length is 29″ with my compound. Just need help from the pros finding a arrow to dream about too. Thanks!
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Amen freind! I am in the same battle and have come to realize after all but begging, is like u said, there is no cut and dry answer to our delima. I’ve decided to just make my best educated guess from all the info I’ve read as a starting point and just hope for the best that it tunes and shoots great while getting efoc and if that fails…. Well there’s always ebay. Good luck and if u do happen to stumble upon this holy grail by all means, please let me know!
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Its an informational overload isn’t it?
Ask those who know, what kills the animal is putting the arrow in the right place. Shot placement. How do we get that? Accuracy. Aside from our form and execution a big part of accuracy is having properly tuned bow and arrow combination. An FOC of 10% to 15% is fine, An arrow weight of approx. 10 grains arrow weight per pound of draw weight is fine. Deadly. Don’t hope it all works out just in an attempt to achieve this “magical” EFOC. Why is it that those I see who swear by EFOC also find it absolutely necessary to use to use huge 5″ and even now 6″ fletch? Might it be because their arrow flight is exceptionally bad? Might they have sacrificed tuning? I’m not saying this is true of everybody, but I see it way too much.
I have no idea where you guys are at in your knowledge but should you find it helpful here is a link to some very good info on tuning trad bows: http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
If you shoot wood or aluminum you should have no problem achieving a decent FOC and arrow weight. If you shoot carbon a little research may be in order because they may prove to be light. But carbons are also obviously perfectly “doable”. -
Red Beard – I could count all the big game I’ve killed with archery equipment on my fingers and toes, so like the other 99% of the people who post on these sites, I’m an “armchair expert”.
Here is what I do know from history.
1. Traditional bowmen have always seemed to favor a heavier tip weight than compounders(especially recently), and heavier arrows.
2. Arrows with an FOC of 10%-15% and around 10gr/lb of draw weight have been effectively and efficiently blowing thru big game since Pope and Young.
3. I have yet to read about any of the other big boys of traditional bowhunting dropping their proven arrow combinations to chase the “magical” EFOC.
So, with no disrespect towards Dr. Ashby or anyone who “chooses” to chase the EFOC, it seems to me that as long as you follow the long proven guidelines stated in #2 above, tune your bow/arrow combination for good arrow flight, use sharp broadheads, and pick your shots, then history has long proven you should be fine.
I have read Dr. Ashby’s studies and think they are valid and useful(many thanks for your dedication and allowing us to learn from them), but they are just ONE way, not the ONLY way to responsibly hunt big game. And, as valid as they may be, they are only one small part of the overall recovery of game animals. If you are ONLY looking to maximize your penetration then by all means go for it. But, as we have all seen, you don’t HAVE to shoot an EFOC arrow to get pass thru shots on game, or bust bone. Fred Eichler busted a shoulder bone of a moose, and recovered it, with his #54 bow and 500gr arrows with 125gr head.
I’m sure there are going to be those who disagree. That’s fine, but before you bash me, prove me (or I should say, prove history) wrong.
Respectfully Abner. -
Bender wrote: Its an informational overload isn’t it?
Ask those who know, what kills the animal is putting the arrow in the right place. Shot placement. How do we get that? Accuracy. Aside from our form and execution a big part of accuracy is having properly tuned bow and arrow combination. An FOC of 10% to 15% is fine, An arrow weight of approx. 10 grains arrow weight per pound of draw weight is fine. Deadly. Don’t hope it all works out just in an attempt to achieve this “magical” EFOC. Why is it that those I see who swear by EFOC also find it absolutely necessary to use to use huge 5″ and even now 6″ fletch? Might it be because their arrow flight is exceptionally bad? Might they have sacrificed tuning? I’m not saying this is true of everybody, but I see it way too much.
I have no idea where you guys are at in your knowledge but should you find it helpful here is a link to some very good info on tuning trad bows: http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
If you shoot wood or aluminum you should have no problem achieving a decent FOC and arrow weight. If you shoot carbon a little research may be in order because they may prove to be light. But carbons are also obviously perfectly “doable”.Have you read the recent Ashby studies? Do you see the fletch he is now using? I believe he calls it A&A. It is not the huge 5″ or 6″ you quote. With a EFOC you will not need the large fletch because you have much better arrow flight.
Ireland
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dabersold wrote: Red Beard – I could count all the big game I’ve killed with archery equipment on my fingers and toes, so like the other 99% of the people who post on these sites, I’m an “armchair expert”.
Here is what I do know from history.
1. Traditional bowmen have always seemed to favor a heavier tip weight than compounders(especially recently), and heavier arrows.
2. Arrows with an FOC of 10%-15% and around 10gr/lb of draw weight have been effectively and efficiently blowing thru big game since Pope and Young.
3. I have yet to read about any of the other big boys of traditional bowhunting dropping their proven arrow combinations to chase the “magical” EFOC.
So, with no disrespect towards Dr. Ashby or anyone who “chooses” to chase the EFOC, it seems to me that as long as you follow the long proven guidelines stated in #2 above, tune your bow/arrow combination for good arrow flight, use sharp broadheads, and pick your shots, then history has long proven you should be fine.
I have read Dr. Ashby’s studies and think they are valid and useful(many thanks for your dedication and allowing us to learn from them), but they are just ONE way, not the ONLY way to responsibly hunt big game. And, as valid as they may be, they are only one small part of the overall recovery of game animals. If you are ONLY looking to maximize your penetration then by all means go for it. But, as we have all seen, you don’t HAVE to shoot an EFOC arrow to get pass thru shots on game, or bust bone. Fred Eichler busted a shoulder bone of a moose, and recovered it, with his #54 bow and 500gr arrows with 125gr head.
I’m sure there are going to be those who disagree. That’s fine, but before you bash me, prove me (or I should say, prove history) wrong.
Respectfully Abner.Abner,
We have compound bow shooters using 400 grain arrows and mechanical broadheads killing moose also. Vicki Cianciarulo of Hoyt archery shows us how to do on video. I know that I for one will stick with my present “Ashby inspired” set-up.
You do have history on your side Abner. I won’t disagree…
With a national wound rate of around 55% (19 studies), I’m personally going to do all I can to prepare for when “things go wrong”.Ireland
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Ireland – I too try to follow Ahsby’s studies , to a point. Not that going from high FOC 15%-20% to EFOC wouldn’t give better penetration, the studies show it does, but for deer and bear my set up has proven to do the job for many, many years. Will my 15%-20% FOC set up bust every shoulder bone when I make a bad shot up front? Most likely not, given other possibilities like skip angle and such but, nor will your EFOC. There are already posts showing up that prove that. It isn’t a cure all for bad shots.
The problem with the so called wound rate studies, when dealing with this penetration subject, is that they don’t take into account only deer that were shot in the front shoulder and lost. I could be wrong, but I don’t think that a EFOC arrow is going to help much when you gut shoot your deer, or any other bad shot that doesn’t hit bone. So, as bad as it is to loose an animal, FOC or lack of it can’t really be used as a stand alone argument. If all animals only jumped backwards at the shot, or I only pulled my shots to the front, then yes, but that isn’t the case. Also, as bad as it is to loose an animal to a shoulder shot that doesn’t get in, I would guess that it has a very high rate of recovery compared to a gut shot. Again, EFOC or EEFOC is no guaranty you are going to recover the animal.
Let me be clear, I am for Dr. Ashby’s studies, but I think it has gotten to the point that all other ways are wrong, and that certainly is not the case. I think the good Dr. has even said something to that effect when dealing with deer sized game, and again, I know history has proven it.
On a side note, I just did some research on a certain web page that sells the “Ultimate” EFOC hunting set up with single bevel heads and all. Total cost for a dozen…$450. absolutely absurd! -
Not saying that EFOC causes bad flight. Haven’t seen what Ashby uses. But it wouldn’t surprise me that he would use a reasonably sized fletch. He seems to know what he’s doing. What I am saying it that way too many have ignored basic principles of tuning in their efforts to achieve EFOC, and as a consequence wind up using huge fletch just so they have something that kinda sorta flys. It seems to happen most often with new folks with little or no experience in arrow construction. They read about somewhere like a website or forum and they take it that EFOC is the be all and end all of arrow construction. Its becoming a dominant mindset to the exclusion of the basics. I’m not saying that EFOC is “bad”. But the well tuned arrow put in the right spot will do far more for your penetration and kill ratio than any amount of EFOC ever will. Follow the basics, get some time and experience, and over time that experience will enable you to play around with stuff like EFOC and determine for yourself what does and does not work. There is no reason what so ever for new folks to be confused or worse yet be out there shooting crappy set ups.
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dabersold wrote: Ireland – I too try to follow Ahsby’s studies , to a point. Not that going from high FOC 15%-20% to EFOC wouldn’t give better penetration, the studies show it does, but for deer and bear my set up has proven to do the job for many, many years. Will my 15%-20% FOC set up bust every shoulder bone when I make a bad shot up front? Most likely not, given other possibilities like skip angle and such but, nor will your EFOC. There are already posts showing up that prove that. It isn’t a cure all for bad shots.
The problem with the so called wound rate studies, when dealing with this penetration subject, is that they don’t take into account only deer that were shot in the front shoulder and lost. I could be wrong, but I don’t think that a EFOC arrow is going to help much when you gut shoot your deer, or any other bad shot that doesn’t hit bone. So, as bad as it is to loose an animal, FOC or lack of it can’t really be used as a stand alone argument. If all animals only jumped backwards at the shot, or I only pulled my shots to the front, then yes, but that isn’t the case. Also, as bad as it is to loose an animal to a shoulder shot that doesn’t get in, I would guess that it has a very high rate of recovery compared to a gut shot. Again, EFOC or EEFOC is no guaranty you are going to recover the animal.
Let me be clear, I am for Dr. Ashby’s studies, but I think it has gotten to the point that all other ways are wrong, and that certainly is not the case. I think the good Dr. has even said something to that effect when dealing with deer sized game, and again, I know history has proven it.
On a side note, I just did some research on a certain web page that sells the “Ultimate” EFOC hunting set up with single bevel heads and all. Total cost for a dozen…$450. absolutely absurd!Dabersold,
Please remember that an “Ashby inspired set-up” is not just EFOC. Lets not forget: #1 structural integrity, #2 arrow flight #4 MA #5 shaft-diameter to ferrule diameter #6 arrow mass etc, etc. All twelve plus factors all must be considered. It is not just about EFOC.
Not sure why someone would pay $450 for the “Ultimate” EFOC hunting set-up. Please send me a pm for that web page.
My “Ultimate” Ashby inspired set-up costs:
1. Six Grizzly El Grande broadheads $29.90
2. Brass Inserts $6.00 for six
3. Steel Apapters $4.13 for six
4. Half-dozen Gold Tip, Easton, or Carbon Express arrows
($50-$75 depending upon choice)
5. Feathers, glue, nocks $3.00I heading to the woods for around $120.00.
Ireland
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Bender wrote: Not saying that EFOC causes bad flight. Haven’t seen what Ashby uses. But it wouldn’t surprise me that he would use a reasonably sized fletch. He seems to know what he’s doing. What I am saying it that way too many have ignored basic principles of tuning in their efforts to achieve EFOC, and as a consequence wind up using huge fletch just so they have something that kinda sorta flys. It seems to happen most often with new folks with little or no experience in arrow construction. They read about somewhere like a website or forum and they take it that EFOC is the be all and end all of arrow construction. Its becoming a dominant mindset to the exclusion of the basics. I’m not saying that EFOC is “bad”. But the well tuned arrow put in the right spot will do far more for your penetration and kill ratio than any amount of EFOC ever will. Follow the basics, get some time and experience, and over time that experience will enable you to play around with stuff like EFOC and determine for yourself what does and does not work. There is no reason what so ever for new folks to be confused or worse yet be out there shooting crappy set ups.
Bender,
“Haven’t seen what Ashby uses”. Please read under the Ashby Lethality Forum: RE” What Broadhead Weight is Better” and the “Silent Arrow” posts. Dr. Ashby goes in detail in describing his feather recommendations. Not sure who is recommending the “huge fletch” you describe, but that recommendation is not coming from Dr. Ashby.
In the 2007 Study,Update 8, “Penetration Enhancing Factors”,
Dr.Ashby list arrow flight as #2 when it comes to penetration. Lets not forget there are at least twelve other factors to consider (ie, MA, arrow mass, shaft-diameter, etc).You might want to read the 2007 Study, Update, Part 2, Misconceptions. Ashby provide research regarding putting “the well tuned arrow put in the right spot”
Ireland
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Bender wrote: Not saying that EFOC causes bad flight. Haven’t seen what Ashby uses. But it wouldn’t surprise me that he would use a reasonably sized fletch. He seems to know what he’s doing. What I am saying it that way too many have ignored basic principles of tuning in their efforts to achieve EFOC, and as a consequence wind up using huge fletch just so they have something that kinda sorta flys. It seems to happen most often with new folks with little or no experience in arrow construction. They read about somewhere like a website or forum and they take it that EFOC is the be all and end all of arrow construction. Its becoming a dominant mindset to the exclusion of the basics. I’m not saying that EFOC is “bad”. But the well tuned arrow put in the right spot will do far more for your penetration and kill ratio than any amount of EFOC ever will. Follow the basics, get some time and experience, and over time that experience will enable you to play around with stuff like EFOC and determine for yourself what does and does not work. There is no reason what so ever for new folks to be confused or worse yet be out there shooting crappy set ups.
Bender,
“Haven’t seen what Ashby uses”. Please read under the Ashby Lethality Forum: RE” What Broadhead Weight is Better” and the “Silent Arrow” posts. Dr. Ashby goes in detail in describing his feather recommendations. Not sure who is recommending the “huge fletch” you describe, but that recommendation is not coming from Dr. Ashby.
In the 2007 Study,Update 8, “Penetration Enhancing Factors”,
Dr.Ashby lists arrow flight as #2 when it comes to penetration. There are at least twelve other factors to consider (ie, MA, arrow mass, shaft-diameter, etc). As you correctly point out, some are possibly spending too much time on FOC,EFOC and Ultra-FOC and not looking at the entire
twelve pieces of the pie outlined in update 8.You might want to read the 2007 Study, Update, Part 2, Misconceptions. Ashby provides research regarding putting “the well tuned arrow put in the right spot”
Ireland
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I have to agree with Ireland. If you really read Dr. Ashby he always states that arrow flight not be effected. You want a Front of Center only to point that it doesn’t effected. An arrow that flys squirrely may hit its mark, but don’t count on any penetration. Tuning arrows to the right weight point is very important for correct flight. If you want to go with a heavier broadhead then you might have to move up in the spine choice of your arrow so that it will fly correctly. This goes for us traditional guys as well as the wheels and pullies guys.
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Never said Ashby reccomends big fletch.
Never even said Ashby was wrong.
I guess Ashby is easily taken out of context. Those who insist on big fletch do so in order to compensate for failure to properly tune. How do they wind up there? “Well Ashby said you have to have a massive arrow and EFOC.” And they just stop there. Laziness on their part? I’m still going to stand by what I said, no need to get all confused by Ashby, or by anybody else, stick with the basics and you’ll do fine. Better than fine. -
Ireland – Please don’t take my comment about the absurd high price of the Ultimate EFOC arrow as an attack on your “Ashby inspired” set-up. I know there are cheaper ways to go, as you have posted. That comment was kind of a rabbit trail at the end of my post and another pet peeve I have about this subject. We need not kid ourselves, there are lots of people making tons of money on this and making claims that are not far from falsehoods. Alaska Bowhunting Supply is one of them and the one I was referring to. Add up the cost for a dozen Ashby single bevel broadheads and a dozen Grizzlysticks and there you have it. I’m not at all against private enterprise, but I am against price gouging and advertising that leads someone to believe they NEED to have this or you are somehow not going to be an effective hunter.
And, yes I know that the Ashby tests are not only about EFOC. Somehow that has taken the front seat, but just the fact that we now have a 12 step program to get what some would say is the only responsible arrow for hunting any kind of big game just furthers my point. If I were to hunt Africa’s big 5 I would be the first to jump in on this kind of set-up, but remember my argument is some think we need it for deer and bear sized game.
Again I want to say that I’m very thankfull, and believe that Dr. Ashby has done bowhunting a big favor by doing these tests. It is the the length that some have taken it to that I have a problem with. -
Bender wrote: Never said Ashby reccomends big fletch.
Never even said Ashby was wrong.
I guess Ashby is easily taken out of context. Those who insist on big fletch do so in order to compensate for failure to properly tune. How do they wind up there? “Well Ashby said you have to have a massive arrow and EFOC.” And they just stop there. Laziness on their part? I’m still going to stand by what I said, no need to get all confused by Ashby, or by anybody else, stick with the basics and you’ll do fine. Better than fine.Actually there are folks, like myself that perfer 5-5.5 inch feathers not to stablize our arrows but for the looks. Just like you perfer one bow over another. Just because I like the bigger flecthing doesn’t mean I would have arrow flight problems with smaller feathers. In fact my arrows will group without fletching because I spent many hours bare shaft tuning my setup long before they were crested and fletched.
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dabersold wrote: Ireland – Please don’t take my comment about the absurd high price of the Ultimate EFOC arrow as an attack on your “Ashby inspired” set-up. I know there are cheaper ways to go, as you have posted. That comment was kind of a rabbit trail at the end of my post and another pet peeve I have about this subject. We need not kid ourselves, there are lots of people making tons of money on this and making claims that are not far from falsehoods. Alaska Bowhunting Supply is one of them and the one I was referring to. Add up the cost for a dozen Ashby single bevel broadheads and a dozen Grizzlysticks and there you have it. I’m not at all against private enterprise, but I am against price gouging and advertising that leads someone to believe they NEED to have this or you are somehow not going to be an effective hunter.
And, yes I know that the Ashby tests are not only about EFOC. Somehow that has taken the front seat, but just the fact that we now have a 12 step program to get what some would say is the only responsible arrow for hunting any kind of big game just furthers my point. If I were to hunt Africa’s big 5 I would be the first to jump in on this kind of set-up, but remember my argument is some think we need it for deer and bear sized game.
Again I want to say that I’m very thankfull, and believe that Dr. Ashby has done bowhunting a big favor by doing these tests. It is the the length that some have taken it to that I have a problem with.dabersold,
No offence taken to your “rabbit tail”. I really appreciate your taking the time to clarify. Thank you for providing the information regarding ABS. With prices like those, I think I’ll be staying with my Grizzly and Abowyer broadheads for a long time…
The great thing about the field of bowhunting is we have literally hundreds of options to choose from. If there was just “one-way” to do it, we all would be shooting the same bow, same arrow, and same broadheads. It’s wonderful that we have forums like this to discuss the various options that are available to all of us. It’s impressive to see the level of passion and expertise that each of us bring to our posts. Thanks again for the great information you have provided to this discussion. Thats how we all grow and learn.
Good hunting,
Ireland
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I’ve read the Dr. Ashby studies. As a financial analyst I know miracles can be worked with numbers! As they say, statistics don’t lie but you can lie with numbers.
NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM DR. ASHBY. His studies are very controlled and very informational. Extremely useful. But, I am the same way.
Give me a shaft with the correct spine, decent fletch and a heavy broadhead and I will tune it and be happy. Proof sometimes ignorance is Bliss.:D
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It’s been said here before, once you have a setup that you are confident in and can put the arrow where it counts then all that’s left is to go hunting.
Having said the above it was not until I read some of the good Doctors work that I found the confidence. Now all I got to do is go hunting, easier said than done.
Mark.
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SteveMcD wrote: I’ve read the Dr. Ashby studies. As a financial analyst I know miracles can be worked with numbers! As they say, statistics don’t lie but you can lie with numbers.
NOT TO TAKE AWAY FROM DR. ASHBY. His studies are very controlled and very informational. Extremely useful. But, I am the same way.
Give me a shaft with the correct spine, decent fletch and a heavy broadhead and I will tune it and be happy. Proof sometimes ignorance is Bliss.:D
Dido. With limited time and money I started bare shaft tuning with what I had around and could afford, I only have a 25.5″ draw and 48#’s but the arrows fly without wobble and penetration was adequate as I had complete penetration on an average sized whitetail with-yes, 28″ 1816’s and 125 grn. magnus 2-blade heads shot out of a mid 1970’s Bear Kodiak Hunter. I will strive to get a better and heavier arrow but can’t get too bogged down with a mountain of data right now.
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