A Starting Point for EFOC Arrows?

[cfiles]

#5649

I have read through many of the threads on this forum and through the documents and old articles that Dr. Ashby published, and my head is swirling. I am new to archery and want to make sure I have the best gear suited for my situation. I know there are a lot of variables but I would like the names and configurations of some good arrows and broadheads that will conform to what Dr. Ashby has published. Can somebody help me out here? My local pro shop is evidently still in the lighter is better camp. They sold me Easton XX75 2013 arrows with 125 grain Magnus broadheads. They shoot well, but I am sure they are too light to penetrate a bone on a less than perfect shot.

I will be hunting southern whitetails and hogs. I shoot a 72″ hickory longbow (50# at 30″, I draw 29″). I am confident at 15 yards and will not take a shot longer than that at this point in time. I hunt from the ground and that will likely not change.

Any help would be most appreciated. I want to do everything I can to avoid the addition of another unrecoverable animal to the list.

[sapcut]

#43088

Cfiles,
There will be plenty more entries and information here better than mine but here goes.
First of all I would suggest the first step would be to start with a 3355 spine arrow that is the lightest grains/inch that you can find. For example, I have recently hand loaded an arrow for my brother’s 52 lb. longbow that is a Gold Tip vapor pro and weighs around 6.3 gr/in. It shoots stiff with a light point so I use a 300+ grain point with 100 gr. insert. Due to the heavy weight up front the arrow is now weakened to allow it to fly perfectly. In addition, the FOC is now 32% and the total weight is nice and beefy around 650 gr. (I forgot and now my brother has it so I can’t weigh it)

Just one example.

Richie

[Ed Ashby]

#43111

The best starting point is with some carbon shafts. It’s much easier to build/tune an EFOC arrow on carbon shafts than on any other shaft material.

You don’t mention anything about the degree of center shot on your bow, but I’m guessing it doesn’t have much of an arrow shelf cut into the bow. I’d suggest that you start with a light weight carbon shaft, such as a GT Hunter of Ultralite in 55-75 spine. Next get some 100 grain brass inserts and some 125 grain steel broadhead adaptors and some 190 grain glue-on field points. Mount that combination onto ONE full length BARE shaft and see how it shoots. If it shoots ‘weak spine’, begin shortening the shaft (from the shaft’s nock end) in 5mm increments and shooting a number of shots after each cut is made. See if you can get this combination to ‘tune’. i.e.; get the point of impact of your ‘group center’ to be neither right nor left of your aiming point. (Remember, you’re shooting a number of shots after each shortening of the shaft, so make you adjustments based on the center of the group you’ve shot.)

If you get to your minimum arrow length and the bare shaft tuning is still showing weak spine, remember that you still have things you can do to stiffen the shaft’s dynamic spine. First, unless you have no room to do so, you can thicken the arrow plate. This lets a weaker spine tune. Second, you can add an Internal Footing. This shortens the ‘working section’ of the arrow and stiffens the dynamic spine.

If that doesn’t work, then you need to try using a lighter tip weight. Try changing the steel BH adaptor to a lighter one and/or going to a lower weight for the field point.
If, on the other hand, the full length shaft tunes ‘strong spine’ your options are fewer. One is to increase tip weight by using a weight back of the insert. Some inserts accept screw-in, add-on weights. You can also add a short section of 6mm diameter steel or brass rod back of the insert … or any of many other weights you might have available, such as a 6mm diameter rifle bullet or the shank portion of a 6mm diameter bolt – but be sure to keep track of the exact weight of the add-on piece(s).

Another option, when the spine is too strong, would be to cut your arrow shelf deeper into the bow; but not many will want to take that option.

As a last resort you may have to try another shaft, in a different spine range. Also remember that you can change to a shaft IN THE SAME SPINE RANGE that has a larger or smaller outside diameter. This effectively changes the degree of center shot of your bow. Using a smaller diameter shaft (of the same dynamic spine) is like cutting your arrow shelf deeper, it lets a stiffer dynamic spine tune to the bow. Using a larger shaft diameter (of the same dynamic spine) is like building the arrow plate out; it lets a weaker dynamic spine tune properly.

Hope that wasn’t too confusing, and helps a bit.

Ed

[Ed Ashby]

#43115

Richie could be correct too, a 3555 shaft may be the place to start. To a large degree, that will depend on your bow. If you have access to single full-length shafts, try one in each range. That ‘fast starts’ the process.

Also, don’t forget that the process above ‘gets you real close’ (often, in my experience, ‘spot on’) but be sure to double-check this process against conventional bare shaft tuning, by shooting fletched and unfletched shafts to fine-tune to the same point of impact AND double check against the BH you’ll be using; fletched BH vs. unfletched shaft. Properly tuned all will have the same point of impact.

Ed

[cfiles]

#43229

Sapcut wrote: There will be plenty more entries and information here better than mine but here goes.

What you said made a lot of good sense. Thank you for the information.

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Hope that wasn’t too confusing, and helps a bit.

It is a lot to take in but I get exactly what you are saying. Fortunately for me my local shop has bare shafts and they sell single arrows. They also do in-house fletching and have a range. I will plan on spending a day there in the next few weeks so I can apply what you have written. I am afraid that they will laugh at what I am trying to accomplish, but oh well. Thank you for the information.

I also wanted to let you know I really enjoyed the information about the PNG bows and how the natives use them. It was very enlightening.

/Chad

[tom-wisconsin]

#43658

This winter I started reading Dr. Ashby’s reports. Last year I learned about bare shaft tuning. I had 3555 Gold Tip expedition hunters left 30 inches long. I put field points up to 250 gr. Still were too stiff. Had no way at the time to add more weight. I then bought Carbon Express Predator II arrows at 30 inches. These flew a tad weak at 145 gr head so I put on 5″ feathers and they flew great. However now I will take Dr. Ed’d advice above and put more wt on the GT’s.

[Ed Ashby]

#44250

Chad, having that shop closeby is going to make it a lot easier. I generally have to order a full dozen shafts just to get one to test! Fortunately, I can usually find a ‘need’ for the extras, sooner or later.

Ed

[sapcut]

#44438

Dr. Ashby, I have recently bought the GT Ultralight Entradas at EagleArchery.com and buying 6 at a time for $3.99 each and $6 handling.

Richie

[Ed Ashby]

#45359

Thanks, Richie. I think the last ones I bought were from Eagle too.

Ed

[Str8arrow]

#46670

cfiles,

You may want to call around and see if you can find a shop that is experienced with setting up trad bows. It can make it a whole lot easier when getting help from someone who knows what they’re doing. Very few compound-oriented shops will have a clue how to properly spine-tune an arrow and virtually none will have any experience in loading up the tip.

I’m lucky in that my local shop is owned by my brother and we’ve set it up so every arrow he sells has a group that customers can shoot. Each group has arrows cut at 1/2″ increments and they are bareshaft. They already have the heavy inserts installed. So, all the customer has to do is add tip weight and experiment shooting them out of their bow. It usually takes very little time to get one with a heavy tip that is close to proper length. He then cuts them a dozen to a length about 1/2″ longer than what we think it will take and then trim 1/4″ at a time until we have perfect flight from a bareshaft at 25 yards.

[tom-wisconsin]

#46732

Wow, your brother really goes beyond the idea of good customer service.

[Ed Ashby]

#46919

Steve, I’ll second that WOW! That is truly outstanding. Wish there were more archery shops delivering such service!

Ed

[Str8arrow]

#47547

The shop is something he does because he’s loves it. He spends so much time with each customer while setting up their equipment, there is no way he makes much on them. He does have some very faithful customers though. Fortunately, he has another job.

[Ed Zachary]

#47639

From Steve – “I’m lucky in that my local shop is owned by my brother and we’ve set it up so every arrow he sells has a group that customers can shoot. Each group has arrows cut at 1/2″ increments and they are bareshaft. They already have the heavy inserts installed. So, all the customer has to do is add tip weight and experiment shooting them out of their bow. It usually takes very little time to get one with a heavy tip that is close to proper length. He then cuts them a dozen to a length about 1/2″ longer than what we think it will take and then trim 1/4″ at a time until we have perfect flight from a bareshaft at 25 yards.”

Now that is dumfoundingly perfect service!
A big kudos to your brother.

[Str8arrow]

#47975

Ed Zachary wrote:
Now that is dumfoundingly perfect service!
A big kudos to your brother.

I’ll tell him you said so!

What’s really sad, is that the only archers taking advantage are the trad guys. Compound shooters seem to be happy with something somewhat close.

[cfiles]

#50039

The shop closest to my house is a compound only shop. The shop a little ways down the road does compounds and traditional archery. After some thought though, I want to try this myself. I looked around and think I have found everything I need, given what has been said here. The following list is what I have in my basket, please tell me if you guys see something wrong.

All of this is from 3Rivers Archery…

* Traditional Only Carbon Shaft Test Kit. The kit comes with one shaft for the following sizes 300, 340, 400. If understand this right the 300 spine is similar to the GT shafts you guys are talking about?
* Brass Inserts 5/16″ – 100 grain
* 11/32 125 grain Steel Adapters
* 11/32 Glue On Field Point Test Kit. The kit includes 2-100 grain, 2-125 grain, 2-145 grain, 2-160 grain, and 2-190 grain points

I am going to try and go by the weights/process that Dr. Ashby discussed. I figure by getting the test kit I give myself a bit of wiggle room if something does not work out. Thoughts?

[Ed Ashby]

#52626

Sounds like you’re all set to do some bare shaft work, chad!

Ed

[Bert]

#52982

Chad- I’ve got an order form from 3rivers filled out with the exact same items as you- plus a few extras. Think I’m going to wait just a bit to see what works for you- nothing like using others money for the same experiment!
What draw weight and bow are you shooting and what’s your arrow length from nock to BOH(back of head)? What type of fletch-3″, 4″, or 5″-3 or 4 configuration- cap wrap or not?
Have you thought about the A&A fletch- 2″ to 2 1/2″ by 1/2″ high, 90 degree rocket fin cut with a strip of auto detail tape 1/4″(turbolator) in front of the fletch?
Don’t forget to give us the overall shaft weight and percentage of FOC(forward of center_- Dr. Ed’s got a great chart here on the site).
Now let’s get out there, in wind ,rain or snow and get this sorted out so you can post soonest the results of your experiments- we await with suspended checkbook(shows you how old I am!). Most of all have fun!
Best-Bert Edit- Duh!- just reread your 1st post which states you’re shooting a 50# longbow which just happens to be what I’m shooting now-PSE ‘Sequoia’ 68″- 50#@28″ with a SBD D-97 8-strand padded loop flemish- a little shorter draw length than you but we all know every bow is a law unto itself.

[Ed Ashby]

#53093

Bert’s ‘spot on’. This is where it starts. If we want to get an assortment of information on what EFOC/Ultra-EFOC arrow setup(s) are working from verious bows it has to be through a lot of folks cooperating and sharing their results with each other. That includes the results they get with the fletching setup too.

Even when we have the information, you’ll still need to remember that it will still just be a starting place. Many small factors; such as thickness of your arrow plate, minor differences in the degree of ‘center cut’ between 2 ‘like bows’ or quality of your release; can alter your individual ‘best arrow setup’. The information from others will be just like the ‘load data’ information in a reloading manual; “here’s what might work, but it might not be the ‘best load’ for your individual weapon. Start here and do you own load development”.

The nice thing is, once you have your individual ‘pet load’ it won’t change, so long as you bow setup stays the same! You only have to develop your ‘pet load’ once. But there’s nothing to keep you from looking for other ‘pet loads’ if you like. It’s always fun.)

Ed

[cfiles]

#54487

Thanks for all of the help guys. The order has been placed and should be here next week.

Bert, I will be sure to post everything that I find here once I get it all figured out. Like you, I also ordered a few extras. I could not resist a scale and a draw weight scale.

As for the bow I am using…In the past I have never had trouble drawing a larger weight (70+ pounds on a compound). The 50# long bow I have does not really feel like 50#s either. With all that in mind I went out and found a really nice looking Ben Pearson longbow with a 60# draw. It should be here this week. I am going to fire a few arrows out of it and see how it feels. If it goes like I want, it will be my main bow and the one I will use to do all of this testing.

Now all I need is UPS to hurry and get me my stuff!

[Author]

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