A short rant about KE…

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#3057

When will the bowhunting community move beyond all this “kinetic energy” BS?!?

Using KE as an accurate measurement of anything useful when it comes to arrows demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of basic physics. I don’t care what the “potential energy” of an arrow is when it’s laying on the dinner table. I care about what it’s doing when it is moving – and that means you don’t use a scalar to describe it – you use a vector.

As many of us here have come to realize – an object can have a seriously impressive “KE” number, and still have incredibly poor penetrating qualities…

But the bow industry has decided to focus its entire marketing strategy on speed, because speed is sexy and sexy sells. And because “Kinetic Energy” sounds way sexier and more “science-y” than “Momentum.” And because it isn’t that hard to convince the mentally challenged that 320 fps. is WAY BETTER than the bow you bought last year that only shoots at 300 fps, so sell that outdated piece of crap and get the new “DEVASTATOR” – you’ll blow right throw a brick wall!! And if you don’t believe us, watch our extreme new video!!!

Anyway…yes, I’ve had a full pot of coffee this morning and I’m fired up. But it’s also been bugging me for a while that this widespread misunderstanding about KE continues to be propagated, and readily consumed (even by many trad folks).

Carry on…

[David Petersen]

#16027

We need an “applause” emoticon here! 😀

[Ralph]

#16215

Yeppers!!! Totally in agreement. With both!:wink:

[David Petersen]

#16252

Aha, as it turns out Smithy has supplied his own applause, from a previous post …

[Arne Moe]

#16497

Well said SmithHammer. If you can’t impress with facts, dazzle ’em with Bravo Sierra. Common advertising these days.

Arne

[David Coulter]

#16513

Rant on brother! A good rant is as much of a good thing as a misinformed rant is a bad thing. Keep shoveling the good coal on the fire. dwc

[handirifle]

#16548

I agree, but I do think you’re preachin to the choir here….

[James Harvey]

#16771

Haha, when I read the title I thought, “What’s your problem with their sharpeners dude, they’re f%@^!&g sweet!”

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#17067

handirifle wrote: I agree, but I do think you’re preachin to the choir here….

Possibly, but this was actually prompted by discussions I continue to see on a few other trad forums, not compound folks.

The number of archers (trad and modern) who continue to throw around “KE” when they obviously don’t really know what it is amuses me to no end. But it sure sounds good on the surface…

[handirifle]

#17082

Well if it makes ya feel any better, the rifle guys aren’t any smarter. There’s those that feel a 80gr, 6mm bullet at 3500fps is better on big game than a 400gr .458 bullet at 1700fps. It will out penetrate it shoots flatter yada yada.

Funny all those dead Bison might disagree with them.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#17186

handirifle wrote: Well if it makes ya feel any better, the rifle guys aren’t any smarter. There’s those that feel a 80gr, 6mm bullet at 3500fps is better on big game than a 400gr .458 bullet at 1700fps. It will out penetrate it shoots flatter yada yada.

Funny all those dead Bison might disagree with them.

Ha. No kidding.

Alas, you can lead a horse to math, but hooves still make it hard to push the calculator buttons.

[Ralph]

#17255

I like it when my connectic energy works.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#17264

R2 wrote: I like it when my connectic energy works.

😀

I’ve been noticing a clear connection between how my arrows fly, and the presence of daylight. Therefore, I’m forced to conclude that my arrows must be solar powered…

[Ralph]

#17283

Lunar powered slower. Full moon best. Carry silver tipped arrows just in case.

[James Harvey]

#17350

handirifle wrote: Well if it makes ya feel any better, the rifle guys aren’t any smarter.

Handi,

Is it possible rifle shooters have been mislead by military trends towards smaller rounds (e.g. 5.56 has a couple of good characteristics, but penetration is not one of them)? Or is it more like the c-bow thing, just an advertising means to a sales end? Or is it something else entirely?

[handirifle]

#18344

No I think it’s the KE issue, mostly. You wouldn’t believe the comments guys make about old rounds like the 30-30 and how ineffective it is because it’s not a “flat” shooter.

They have been sold a bill of goods on the minimum of ft lbs required for this or that game animal. The fact is I know of ranchers today that use a 22lr on deer. Not to get into the obvious legal issues, the end results are dead deer. They shoot in the lungs, the deer runs about 30 yds and stands there a min or two then falls over dead. My point with all that is it does not take nearly the power folks have been lead to believe it takes to kill something.

My personal opinion, whether its archery or firearms, it is brought on by laziness or lack of practice or experience. Or a mix of all three.

To explain, the laziness comes from not practicing, not willing to learn the trajectory of a chosen round. That is a result of less practice or saying I want to zero at 100yds and know I can hit at point XXX at 300yds, without ever firing a round at 200yds, much less 300. The lack of experience is from doing neither of the above, and believing everything they read in the magazines about the new laser beam round they purchased.

I’ve had co-workers, in the past, try to tell me how much flatter x round was over Y round, and when I show them ballistics tables comparing those rounds most are dumbfounded. Usually, when using premium components, there’s not a hands width of difference in impact points at 300yds between rounds like the 270 Win all the way to the big magnums. On paper there can be some fairly significant differences in……kinetic energy, but bullets, just like broadheads, often determine the final result, in penetration and tissue damage. There is no perfect combination for everything. You usually give up either trajectory, energy, penetration, something, to get a desired effect. Usually every load is a compromise of something. As with arrows, a very light arrow, as 3D shooters discovered (or re-discovered) they could judge distance less accurately, and still win, but their bows were loud, and the shock usually destroyed the bow. Hunters use a heavy arrow but understand it puts the “arch” back in archery.

On the military front, there are other issues. Having carried an M1A in service, and an M-16, I can tell you without a doubt I prefer to carry the 5.56 ammo, but MUCH prefer the M1A rifle. A soldier can carry twice the 5.56 ammo when compared to the 7.62, and for them numbers mean getting out alive. When we only carry 10-20 rounds into the woods, it doesn’t much matter what caliber they are.

Since most battles are fought within 100 meters the 5.56 can get it done, but there is a definite need for the 7.62 as well. Personally I hated the M-16 but I am a lefty, so that is a nuther story.

[skinner biscuit]

#18851

I got the new cabelas archery catalog. Flipped

through the pages and it was mostly crossbows and mechanical broadheads. Tossed it in the recyclables were it belonged.

[James Harvey]

#18894

skinner biscuit wrote: Tossed it in the recyclables were it belonged.

I was inspired to check their website. Of 104 fixed blade broadheads they list, 3 were two-blades 😯 and two of those were different weights of the same head. Oh dear 🙄

[Ed Ashby]

#19290

Despair not, friends. You should have seen what I was called twenty years ago, for making disparaging remarks about KE and arrow penetration and carrying the banner of Momentum as a better indication of arrow penetration into tissues. We’ve come a long way, Baby. I now see a few, well known wheel bow shooters coming around to heavier arrows, rigid broadheads and acceptance of Momentum over KE. I had one such individual hunting pigs here last week, using 850 grain, EFOC arrows with a good, heavy, rigid single-bevel broadhead from a 78# bow. He’s even been using them to win some 3-D field shoots! He did some fancy long range shooting (on a target) with them too, out to 100 yards. However, he recognizes the difference between a target and an animal. He has a self-imposed 20 yard limit on shooting pigs. He’s also working on a book for the ‘compound community’. I read the first draft … and I never thought I would see a compound shooter who thought about arrow design and arrow force the same way we, here at Friends of EFOC, do.

We are making a difference, slowly but surely spreading the word, one bowhunter at a time.

Ed

[sharpster]

#19306

Bruce,

You really need to open up and say what’s on your mind. You’re among friends here. You can tell us what you really think. No need to edit yourself like that. 😆 😛

Ron

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#19335

Sharpster wrote: Bruce,

You really need to open up and say what’s on your mind. You’re among friends here. You can tell us what you really think. No need to edit yourself like that. 😆 😛

Ron

Good to know, Ron. I’ve been holding back….:D

[mhay]

#19486

skinner biscuit wrote: I got the new cabelas archery catalog. Flipped

through the pages and it was mostly crossbows and mechanical broadheads. Tossed it in the recyclables were it belonged.

Same thing happened last week here in Ohio.

[Alexandre Bugnon]

#19639

mhay wrote: [quote=skinner biscuit]I got the new cabelas archery catalog. Flipped

through the pages and it was mostly crossbows and mechanical broadheads. Tossed it in the recyclables were it belonged.

Same thing happened last week here in Ohio.

And here in NYC!:D

[David Petersen]

#19710

Bruce — see what happens around here when you “rant” about an important truth? Like-minded “elitists” come popping out of the woods in support. 😆

Ed, we need a whole bunch more like that. I was at my eye doctor last week and he said he’d recently increased the weight of his arrows based of “stuff” he’s been reading about momentum. I asked what weight he is shooting now and he said “almost 550.” 🙄

Cabela’s — the more you know about this outfit, the more you’ll detest them. Our MT members like know some of what I’m alleging here. The only reason I don’t urinate on then burn their 5-pound catalogs is that I too am a believer in recycling. I’m sure their catalogs would easily stop most of the alleged “broadheads” they sell. The “hunting industry” is perhaps the number one problem with hunting today, and Cabela’s is at the very bottom of that cesspool.

[Col Mike]

#19752

Before you recycle take it out to the range and see how far different point weights penetrate–my carbon ex.350 with 300gr up front had a clean pass through–then I urinate on it and took it to recycle:D

[Ed Ashby]

#19776

colmike wrote: Before you recycle take it out to the range and see how far different point weights penetrate–my carbon ex.350 with 300gr up front had a clean pass through–then I urinate on it and took it to recycle:D

Dang, I KNEW those Cabela’s catalogs had to be good for something.

Ed

[Stephen Graf]

#21273

Sounds like we may have the beginning of a pissing contest here…:shock:

I don’t know what you boys are complaining about. I shoot my 42 grain arrows out of my 973 lb double cammed ultra avenger magnum patriot killer compound with stick-em-good technology and they fly good out to 200 yards.

Why just the other day I shot into a herd-o-deer at 160 yards and I’m sure I stuck one good, I just didn’t have the time to go see. No big deal, there’s always next time.

And as for cabela’s, I love their catalog. Where else could a serious bowhunter get all the accessories necessary to rig up his 4 wheeler to hold his stick-em-good compound is ready-to-shoot position and have it delivered fully assembled to his Cabela’s $10,000 guided ultra hunt of a lifetime drop camp?

You guys are way off.

[David Coulter]

#21759

I know I have a stack of Steve’s favorite catalogs in my homemade broadhead target. They are good for something. dwc

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