A different kind of pay-to-play hunting

[David Petersen]

#2542

ColMike recently bemoaned that things were slow hereabouts and “someone” should introduce another “stirring” topic, as in “stir things up.” So here we go. This is a huge problem in CO as well as UT and elsewhere. I sure grow tired of “raising money for wildlife” as an excuse for all the excesses and attacks on the N.A. Model of Wildlife Conservation by the likes of SCI and, yes, our state wildlife management agencies.

[Doc Nock]

#10504

Interesting article, David. Having lived in MT, and hob knobbing with some Fish & Wildlife types, I got to see some interesting sides to Western game management and Rancher-relations.

Ranchers gets super cheap BLM etc grazing permits and their domestic critters eats off all the feed way up in the mountains. Come fall/winter, animals migrate to those areas to find no food…then migrate to the valley and eat rancher’s hay. Unfair? I dunno. Not smart enough, but am going to side-step my own opinion on that one.

Access to land to hunt vs.landowner damage control being allowed…meaning shooting unwanted animals at the haystack, surely raises some gnarly issues.

While considering relocation, to the Four Corners area, it appeared that NM, UT, AZ all required permit draw. Talked to one guy lived there 4 yrs in AZ and only ever drew a Kalbib Squirrel permit. Drawing for small game and large? Wow.

I decided to pass on all that muck…But even back East here, land access is the key. Public land is way over-hunted and success of even “aesthetic” appeal is lost amidst the madding crowds.

[Col Mike]

#10643

Well you certainly stirred the bucket with that. The one thing that jumped out at me was the incredible amount of money that must be collected for conservation.

I wonder if anyone has ever traced the paper trail and reported on where that money really goes. It smells to me like politicians and insiders, laughing at us.

I’m not a lawyer and certainly unaware of the various state regulations–shoot I have trouble with the MD ones, it will be interesting to see what some of our more informed participants think—Forager?

Mike

[1shot]

#10692

Arizona is on a draw system for most big game rifle permits, points for Elk, point “creep” and all the nonsence involved with a very short season with many hunters in the same unit at the same time. I havent applyed for rifle Deer tags in over 20years here, put your applcation in June for a december hunt and hope the mountain doesnt burn down before the hunt is as stressfull as the 4-6days to get a Buck on the ground… NOT enjoyable at all to me…

Cattle not allowed in the National Forest I hunt(Coronado)///

AZ Game and Fish is run by political appointies and isnt for the “common” man/family…

Archery Deer permits are still over the counter… and still a great bargan with long seasons State-wide…

[Fallguy]

#10768

I WAS a member of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation for 20 years. When they started they were about habitat restoration. There mission was to create a healthy environment that benefits all species. But slowly it changed to a fund raising mentality and suck up to the boys with the cash. Big donors need special treatment, opportunities to buy hard to draw tags (auction items). So they talked state agencies into giving them special tags and they split the proceeds. Then the big boys wanted less competition so they pushed for predator elimination. Can’t waste a trophy elk on a wolf you know. Aldo Leopold would be proud???

[jpd]

#11552

Well said Colmike. I have to agree with you 100% on finding just where the money is going.—-jpd (jim)

[James Harvey]

#11564

colmike wrote: I wonder if anyone has ever traced the paper trail and reported on where that money really goes. It smells to me like politicians and insiders, laughing at us.

Mmm, when the guy running the show says

“We believe we’ve fulfilled our obligation” to bring in convention dollars and support wildlife projects.

That doesn’t sound like a fellow passionate about supporting wildlife, it sounds like a guy who sees that as a burden that must be carried to achieve his real goals, what ever they may be.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#11696

ausjim wrote:

That doesn’t sound like a fellow passionate about supporting wildlife, it sounds like a guy who sees that as a burden that must be carried to achieve his real goals, what ever they may be.

My thoughts precisely.

[Stephen Graf]

#12302

colmike wrote: …I wonder if anyone has ever traced the paper trail and reported on where that money really goes…

Well according to the article: “…An audit of the $1 million from the convention drawing was made public in August, prompted by Mr. Boulter’s complaints. It showed that about $250,000 went toward lobbying for increased hunting of wolves, which at the time were still listed as endangered in the Northern Rockies…”

Sounds like our Wildlife Efforts. Our WRC is working to kill out the red wolves in NC. Which means making the species extinct in the wild.

Using conservation funds to exterminate species. That’s quite an ego we humans have.

[Col Mike]

#12881

Steve

So right you are. I read (with a tear in the eye) Camuto’s Another Country. What a travesty–bring them back–then eliminate them. There is another link out there–sorry I sent it to Dave then deleted because it made me sick–forgot which state–but essentially it said take your kids hunting for wolves or coyotes and win an Xmas present:evil:

I spent some time in the woods today–stumping–deer season doesn’t open again until 6 Jan–spent some time thinking and enjoying the wild–not sure our species is worth it.

But Happy holidays to all–on the road for a couple of days–family stuff- our musher in training will be taking care of the dogs–catch up next week.

Semper Fi

Mike

[Stephen Graf]

#13479

Mike,

Thanks for the inadvertent book tip! I’m going to add it to the list… And have a good trip.

[Bernie Clancey]

#13650

Well, I am a Canadian and probably have no right to comment on what is happening in the States, but I believe that the combination of big money, along with habitat loss, is taking you down a bad road. I think you simply have to look to Europe to see where this is going to lead. You can hunt if you have the money. You can hunt if you can find a piece of property to hunt on.

We have a moose permit draw here. It costs about 7 bucks to enter. I have entered for 32 years and am still waiting for my first opportunity. I may not Like the wait, but it is fair for all and the price is right.

[Ralph]

#13657

[quote=Berniebac]Well, I am a Canadian and probably have no right to comment on what is happening in the States, but I believe that the combination of big money, along with habitat loss, is taking you down a bad road.

Perfect example of what the outside can see but so many of those on the inside are blinded by their greed. Thanks for the outside view and opinion..

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#13715

Berniebac wrote:

I think you simply have to look to Europe to see where this is going to lead. You can hunt if you have the money. You can hunt if you can find a piece of property to hunt on.

This bears repeating, and I wish all Americans could grasp this. When you haven’t seen what things are like “over there” – in terms of the lack of wild, public land and the extreme elitism of hunting and fishing in many parts of Europe, then it’s easy to take what we have in North America for granted, and to not see the warning signs of where this is all headed.

The irony of becoming more and more like the place that many of our forefathers couldn’t wait to escape from, is something I ponder a fair bit these days…

[David Petersen]

#13727

Berniebac, you and your views are quite welcome here. I just wish your screen name were easier to spell. 😛

There are two basic points of great import that you and Bruce and Ralph bring up here:

First is the constant push push push by people with too much money and insufficient humanity to take hunting out of the democratic realm and turn it in their favor, as they are doing with the rest of life, aka the European model, which is an ugly model indeed. Nothing personal toward any residents of these places, but by way of examples the outstanding examples in N. America heading down this dark trail are Texas down here and Alberta up there. This is why we must defend every little piece of the N. American Model for Wildlife Conservation, currently under strongest attack from the lie-named Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife (with whom RMEF has joined in their wolf pogrom).

The other important point, essential to maintain a workable NA Model, is protection of publicly owned wildlife habitat.

Given these threats it is my firm opinion that any sportsmen and women today, anywhere in N.A., who simply enjoy the resources we still have in many places and not only don’t contribute to the defense of public lands and the NA Model, but far worse, who vote for politicians* who are known to work for the industrialization and privatization of public wildlife habitat, these folks, from our own ranks, due to their ostrich head-in-sand view of life, are bigger threats to the future of democratic hunting in N.A. then are the antis. As another member here has stated, “May their children inherit their dreams!”

*Given this site’s wise prohibition against political, religious and other high-voltage discussions, this is as far as we can or need to take the political angle here–just to point out that how we vote directly, as time ticks forward, affects the future of the NA Model and democratic hunting in America(s). If not fur us old farts, certainly for our kids and grandkids, yours as well as mine.

[Bernie Clancey]

#13801

DavidP, I think you have hit it right on the mark. The only problem is when listening to candidates running for office they often say one thing to get elected, then do another once in office. A local issue I am watching closely is Sunday hunting. It has never been allowed here. Recently, while sitting in the opposition, members introduced a law that would permit Sunday hunting. The governing party defeated this bill.

With a recent election, these former opposition members are now forming the government. They only had a short session in the legislature, but they did not re-introduce their law permitting Sunday hunting. Maybe they will in the future. I will be watching to see. But, they promised it while in opposition, will they make it happen when they have the power to bring it in.

Regardless, listen carefully, and beware of smiling ba$tar#s.

I also think the auction approach to selling tags will make the small guy a poacher in the future. I hope it never comes to that.

[David Petersen]

#13883

Bernie– Don’t just watch and listen and hope for the best … start writing letters to the key pols, and to newspapers. When they vote right, publicly congratulate them. When they lie etc., publicly call them to task. Democracy cannot exist without accountability. And only a free press can provide that accountability. Don’t rely on the professional newscasters to do it, as they are often part of the problem.

So far as beating the lying bahstahds, it’s not difficult these days, with google, to get the voting records of your pols on any topic. Go back through their years in office and see how they’ve voted on issues related to hunting, wildlife habitat protections, etc., and trust in that. In the end it’s up to us to save hunting in meaningful forms. Ain’t nobody else going to do it for us.

[Fallguy]

#14647

My late Grandfather always told me there was 1 sure fire way to tell when a politician is lying. Just look him in the eye and watch to see if his lips start moving.:twisted:

[Col Mike]

#15129

Bernie

Dave’s advice right on–don’t sit back attack. Our grass roots program has delayed fracking of the shale gas in MD. for 3 years and if successful will ban it. Get active, only the meek will inherit the earth–about 6 feet of it.:P

By the way, during our travels around the country for 2 years after I retired we spent almost 2 months in your neck of the woods Cheti Camp was one of our best stays and of course the Digby scallops fresh off the boat were a treat.

Welcome

Mike

[CareyE]

#15211

I think you simply have to look to Europe to see where this is going to lead.

My thoughts exactly!! One of “Uncle Ted’s” favorite lines is…”You can’t do this in France!” Well guess what Ted, France is coming here and you are one of the ones bringing it on.

[SteveMcD]

#15782

I sympathize for you guys & gals in the west. I had often thought of the west for it’s abundance of game. I can understand a lottery draw, as long as everyone has an equal chance. I do not believe the North America Model is new to just the Teddy Roosevelt Era, it started with the Pilgrims, and the belief was the wildlife resources belonged to everyone. Having said that I have belonged to private clubs for over twenty years that although bought licences like everyone else, we did have access to better land, more animals, less hunting pressure. However, for greater than the past decade that has all changed, development has put a strain on access to dwindling private land as well. So much so that if you really want a quality hunting experience you’re better off doing the leg work and hunting public land, although we think of the east as being congested we have vast tracts of public land available, and anyone willing to put in the time and effort can do well. The European Model scares me, there is more to it than who just owns the wildlife, it controls who can hunt and who can’t (similar to what it is now becoming in the US). With all the recent firearms regulations in the UK, how come British citizens have to turn in their guns, but Prince Charlie and his brood get to go hunting all the time? If the common man can’t hunt, just another way for the government to step in and say “you don’t need a gun, so we’re going to take them away”.

[Bernie Clancey]

#15808

colmike wrote: Bernie

Dave’s advice right on–don’t sit back attack. Our grass roots program has delayed fracking of the shale gas in MD. for 3 years and if successful will ban it. Get active, only the meek will inherit the earth–about 6 feet of it.:P

By the way, during our travels around the country for 2 years after I retired we spent almost 2 months in your neck of the woods Cheti Camp was one of our best stays and of course the Digby scallops fresh off the boat were a treat.

Welcome

Mike

I believe Dave’s advice is very good and will be involved in the future.

I am glad to hear you liked Nova Scotia. Cheticamp is in the heart of the moose hunting country under our lottery system. I just had some of those scallops on Saturday evening. They are very good, but we’re not fresh from the boat.

[David Fudala]

#16460

This is really a great topic guys and a very important one! The biggest problem we face here in the upper Midwest right now is that huge tracts of land which have been owned by paper companies for eons are now going out on the open market. These lands were open to public access but now as these companies are going out of business they are liquidating their assets. Now, the obvious question is, why doesn’t the state buy up the land? As we all know, the answer is obvious. The states are broke and cannot afford to buy these lands at the prices private investors are willing to pay. The potential these lands possess being turned into private reserves price the state out of competition. This fall a single chunk of land that I have hunted for years went up for sale. One single property encompassing over 5000 acres that will soon no longer be accessible to the public. Every year the landscape changes and new lines are drawn. It is a scary reality that one day, there won’t be room for any more lines!

[Don Thomas]

#16493

Col. Mike asks about a paper trail to follow the money. I would refer you to the editorial I wrote for TBM on this subject a while back. Of $2.4 million earned by SFW by auctioning tags in Utah during the last year for which records are available, nearly half was spent on “conventions and conferences.” Exactly how much good does that do for wildlife? And while this forum is not supposed to be political, I would strongly encourage you all to read the relevant plank in the 2012 national Republican Party platform. If you can’t find it, get back to me and I will quote it for you here. (BTW, I am officially an Independent with no ideological dog in the fight.) Don

[Stephen Graf]

#16825

2012 is ancient history in terms of current politics… And while I am sure I would get a bad case of hives trying to find what you are referring to, maybe a link would be good.

I must add too, even an independent must have a dog in the fight. If we all don’t have a dog in the fight, than the fight is fixed.

[CareyE]

#16989

It is ironic that the same industry that promotes adding as many hunters to the ranks, is also the same one that uses celebrities who will be the only ones that will be able to afford to hunt, on the land they are buying up!!

[Don Thomas]

#17214

Steve–Here you go: “Experience has shown that in caring for the land and water private ownership has been our best guarantee of conscientious stewardship, while the worst instances of environmental degradation have occurred under government control… Congress should reconsider whether parts of the federal government’s enormous holdings and control of water in the West could be better used for ranching, mining, or forestry under private ownership.” Translation: The rich guys shouldn’t just get tags–they should get the last land all of us out here have left to hunt on. By the way, I most certainly do have a dog in the fight as anyone who has followed Montana wildlife politics can tell you. I simply don’t chose to have my views determined for me by outside interests, Democrat or Republican. Don

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#17348

“…while the worst instances of environmental degradation have occurred under government control…”

I’m sorry, but talk about a disingenuous statement. By far, the worst examples of environmental degradation on our public lands have happened as the direct result of immense pressure, and hands on habitat degradation, from those very same private sector industries that the statement suggests “could do a better job on their own.” If the government has made a mistake in this, it’s in letting these industries operate as largely unsupervised and unregulated as they have on our land.

While I’m no fan of excessive government regulation (and I’m also a registered Independent), the thought of the other extreme – totally unfettered private industries with no oversight or regulation to answer to at all, is absolutely terrifying for all of our natural resources, and our very quality of life. If you think that private industries will dutifully act in the public’s best interest, then I’ve got a great deal on a bridge for you…

[David Petersen]

#17375

Tragically– right on, gentlemen. Among the greatest enemies of the N.A. Model–that is, the American tradition of democratic-access hunting on public lands, in no particular order, are:

1. Private ranchers running their private inventory on public wildlife lands at welfare rates, stripping forage and eroding habitat for wildlife while also putting in “ranch” roads and fragmenting habitat with fences … and who buys their beef? Exports and Us.

2. Private energy industries–oil, gas and good old-fashioned hard-rock mining–doing rape and run development, displacing more wildlife by fragmenting and poisoning habitat, and again, gouging in new roads, all for private profit … and who uses that gas and oil and minerals? Exports and Us.

3. Ill-planned clear-cut logging, with its thousands of miles of roads and the habitat massive fragmentation and erosion and run-off they bring (note that all these negative impacts on the landscape also negatively impact not only wildlife habitat, but aquatic, aka fishing habitat and watersheds that supply drinking water to towns) … And who uses the lumber? Exports and Us.

4. The motorized wreckreation that takes full advantage of all these thousands of miles of back roads, further magnifying the negative impacts of all the extractive industries. And who benefits from motorized wreckreation on public lands? The motorized industry and the motorheads. Definitely not Us.

Now where is the “government conspiracy” in any of this? There definitely is government collusion with all these private evils, and agency mismanagement of the same privateers … insofar as they roll over like puppies and refuse to stick their fingers into all the holes in the dike gouged by all these private forces from doing the damage they do.

Like Daddy used to say, “There are two kinds of SOBS: SOBS and lying SOBS.” The lie-named “Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife” and their sister group “Wildlife Forever,” with whom RMEF has teamed, are both kinds of SOBS. As Don and others have laid out here and elsewhere, such bogus “sportsmen” groups are the single biggest threat to traditional hunting in America today. And “they” too often are “us.”

And let’s not forget what is fueling all those extractive uses above … again, US. Overpopulation and over-consumption drive it all. And are we going to curtail ourselves in order to help ourselves? I’m not holding my breath. Merry Christmas …

[Col Mike]

#18505

Bruce and Dave

Well said. Private, meaning cooperate responsibility for our wild space means more development not preservation as we in the east have seen. We are presently in a fight here in MD to designate some few acres as wild already within state forests–you wouldn’t believe the fight from xmas tree farmers to mountain bikers and hikers.

Not to mention the ongoing struggle to stop fracking of natural gas the fight goes on.

Interestingly none of the opposition is science based–it’s all about them jobs and keeping the kids home, makes you wonder where they got their evolutionary education.

From a ted talk–” The earth is full it’s full of us and our stuff and it’s full of our trash”.

Let’s hope for a better new year

Mike

[twitch]

#19184

This is a tough subject when living in the heart of the SFW country. They push their “do go money” to our DWR here showing their good deeds. They fund deer transplanting, youth hunts, and pay bills for dam repairs to show how good they are. There are a lot of people(many good people) in my community that think that they are our savors. The banquet and big hunting show season is coming soon and many will look down on me for not attending and donating. Now I want nothing more than to improve hunting and fishing but I don’t like what I have seen from big groups like this from behind their scenes. When they first started up I thought that this might be a good thing and wanted to get involved but after seeing the ethics in the field involved with some of the so called leaders I was not impressed. When big money gets involved with people you will see their true side come out. I have seen what big guides can be sucked into with these big auction tags. Ethics can be thrown out the door, I could write a book on what I have seen. At first this big money seemed like a good idea for wildlife but after a year or so it was obvious that it was just cover to get high dollar money in for a select few. I truly want to help but I know this is were I wont put my money and time.

[David Petersen]

#19211

Welcome, twitch! For a long time SWF was pretty much based in AK, back when that state had a notorious gov. They were very active in the push to eliminate wolves and bears, including grizzly, from entire areas in hopes of producing more moose and elk calves to attract more hunters from the lower 48. More recently, they led the charge to have ownership of wildlife on Indian reservations in AK transferred to the tribes so that the tribes could then sell hunts according to their own desire, outside the realm of professional wildlife management. That one failed but demonstrates what SWF is really after–privatization of wildlife to benefit the rich. They are out to totally destroy the US Model. So far as their public “good works” front, SCI has long done the same and tries to pass themselves off as a conservation group. Yep, and I am Snow White. I’d like to BHA add open battle with these rich punks to it’s frontline causes, along with fighting against ATV abuse and other cancers to our wild public hunting and fishing lands. More politically active members would help.

Keep up your good fights back East, ColMike!

[corpsman89]

#19326

I didn’t get through everyone’s post so i appologize if im just repeating someone. The western rancher/conservation/hunter issue is pretty new to me.

Back home (Louisiana) if you wanted to hunt public land you just bought a public permit, but as others here have said, the more hunters you get due to cheaper permits, the more the hunting quality suffers. Generally, if you want good hunts, you hunted on private property (assuming your in good with the owner or you are the owner) and on wich the landowner set the guidelines. Originally my family land was rather poor on game, but we did recieve grants from FWD for projects considered to improve the local ecosystem (things like year round water sources and food plots)so long as it doesn’t negatively impact the surrounding ecosystems. We now have stable populations of hog, turkey, wood duck, and rabbit. Deer population is still a problem though.

It seems to me that a land owner can do what he wants with his land, and alow however much or little hunting they want. But its the governments job to develop public land and make sure private venues don’t negatively affect the ecosystems. If the ranchers livestock is affecting the natural food source for indiginous game then their livestock needs to be more regulated or FWD should provide another food source on public land to support the game animals.

[Col Mike]

#19698

corpsman89

off thread (of course typical for me) but interesting call sign—who did you serve with and where? PM me if desired.

Semper Fi

Mike

[Fallguy]

#20240

“But its the governments job to develop public land and make sure private venues don’t negatively affect the ecosystems.”

Corpsman89 you nailed it with that line. The government is supposed to see to it that the citizens are not ruining what lies beyond their property line. But as we all know politicians are always “For Sale”. So exceptions to the rules are written and poof there goes the neighbor hood. There are many people that despise government regulation. We need to remind them of one thing, regulation is the result of bad behavior by either individuals or business.

[twitch]

#31712

Well wish me luck I have put my foot in my mouth again. This last week my business was approach by the SFW for the annual banquet for donations and of course I had to speak my mind. Now these are people I have known for years and they know me well, one even paid for part of my honeymoon. I tried to do this in the most polite and professional way I could. After voicing my concerns I know I put a bug in their ear. It may be a small bug but I could see it in their eyes. They say they would like to here more form people like me with a different point of view and would hear me out on issues. All I have asked of them is to here me out now whether this will go anywhere or not I don’t know.

[David Petersen]

#31819

Twitch — good going! It’s easy to stand aside and criticize the choices of others, but double-damn hard to tell them to their faces, esp. when they’re friends. And that’s exactly what the world needs more of. And FYI, what these guys are short of is NOT money. Dan Paey, the founder, is a copper mining executive from UT worth many millions. See Roosevelt quote below. Better yet, as quoted in the Anchorage Daily Times, Paey refers to the NA Model of democratic access hunting and public ownership of wildlife as “socialism.” I just love the way these guys try to reframe everything in their favor with branding. If the NA Model is socialism, then so is American democracy socialism. My turn to brand: These swine are traitors who would, if they could, convert our democracy to an oligarchy of the rich. Flashback to the Sagebrush Rebellion: they too wanted to turn all public lands over to private interests who could then charge admission to what is already ours. In AK, SCI has teamed with SFW to try and declare all wildlife on Native American lands as belong to the natives, who will then set up a rich man’s playground that excludes you and me. As we speak, this moment, Mark Richards of AK BHA is testifying at game commission meetings, pretty much a voice alone, against this European royalty-by-money insanity. Thanks for speaking out. So many hunters are so easily duped into working against themselves via lack of skepticism and homework.

[Author]

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