A comment on crossbows

[Ben M.]

#5519

I’m not much of one for politics outside my little prairie town but I did my small part today to speak for bowhunting. Thought I’d share it here.

I filled out my 2012 deer hunter’s survey for the KDWPT, and they asked a few questions about crossbows. At the end of the survey they asked for comments so I sent this:

“I’d like to thank KDPWT for the excellent management techniques that have allowed my children and I such fantastic hunting opportunities and experiences.

I am vehemently opposed to allowing the use of crossbows during archery season. With their scopes, triggers, and high velocity projectiles, crossbows are a form of rifle that afford hunters a greater opportunity of success than does archery equipment. If crossbows are used during archery seasons they will unfairly skew the data on hunter success to the detriment of archers and archery seasons.

Thanks!

-Ben Miller”

Just a little food for thought, that’s all.

[Troy Warner]

#41787

Well put

[Stephen Graf]

#42122

Good luck keeping them out.

We had a big old fight about it here in NC a couple years ago. There are no grounds upon which to allow the Xgun into archery season. Yet we now have it.

[Brennan Herr]

#42195

We also had it out here in PA….xbows are now legal. Problem is it is about money and nothing else. What a shame.

[bruc]

#42196

Well said Prairie Prowler!!

If 60% of the people answered the survey similar to you, then that’s who the politicians should listen too. Most definitely use the crossbow, but in a rifle season where it belongs

Bruce

[RayB]

#42234

We lost that battle in TX, I hope you are successful.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#42249

Well said. Thankfully, in Idaho they are still only allowed during ‘general’ season. I really hope it stays that way.

[WICanner]

#42271

Good for you Prairie, and good luck.

Crossguns are back into the news in WI. They had a meeting earlier in January, and the crossgun advocates came out in force, including support from the NRA. Yes, that NRA. The Wisconsin Bowhunters are even caving in on the crossbow issue at the meeting. The Wisconsin Traditional Archers spoke against. There will be a gun season, then an everything else season. It is just sickening how much pull the crossguns seem to have with some legislators. The main problem is hunter numbers are falling(Selling the crossgun will recruit more hunters argument -kids & women), the deer population in WI is high, and the WI DNR thinks a dead deer is a dead deer, and they don’t care how it happens. Look for WI to fall into the crossbow is legal for all group soon. The ONLY way to really stop them is for the larger non-hunter group of voters to protest or the gun hunters lobby. The NRA isn’t helping in that regard. Evidently, if it has a trigger, it’s A-ok with the NRA.

[CareyE]

#42414

I have to agree with Brennan. It’s all about money here in PA. The PGC needs the money due to the Legislature not giving them a license increase for some time. We also have a lot of “Big Tent” people in the hunting ranks which, in my opinion, is a bad thing. More hunters equals more bad hunters.

[lyagooshka]

#42487

brennanherr wrote: Problem is it is about money and nothing else. What a shame.

While I typically agree with corporate / governmental greed, I must play devil’s advocate in SOME parts of PA. Here in 5C (and definitely in 5D) it is a matter of access. There has been a long push to make all of 5C shotgun only, and all of Philadelphia County is archery only. Problem is, no one wants to let people hunt on or near their land with a rifle, but at the same time they complain about all of the deer damage and accidents. Some places (Valley Forge comes to mind) have to call in sharp-shooters (which is always a hay-day for the PETA-type wackos) to “control” the problem. Still, there are those who are starting to “accept” archery.

So now we are faced with a dilemma. We do not want to “ethically” take a 60 yard shot with a bow, but we cannot hunt with rifle / shotgun. Hence the X-Bow. I have noticed that since they legalized X-Bows here, the number of available antlerless permits has finally stabilized in 5C/5D. The number of available permits was increasing 10-20% a year. Problem was, the harvest was not.

That being said, I am talking about my little neck of the woods here in Southeast PA. I know this is a much wider issue than just here, but in this case, what are the alternatives? Maybe we can open up only a small part of the state to X-Bows? Ah, and there’s the rub than makes calamity of so short life. Now what brennanherr said rings true. The X-Bow companies cannot possible sell enough “product” if there is such a limited season. Now we get into a whole new issue that I just don’t want to do. I just wanted to throw out my “food for thought”. Be well.

Alex

😕

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#42507

We often seem to confuse what we want, with what we should allow ourselves to have. Self-restraint does not have a great history.

[Ralph]

#42520

I know very little about xbows but I have a curiosity. Other than the trigger function and possibly a scope attached for sighting, are they any faster, ballistics any better than some of the new wheels bows with speeds of 350 fps or so? I’m not wanting to debate “killing power” and whatnot,just the capabilities of the machines as far as getting their perspective ammo down field.

[Etter1]

#42562

I’m not a crossbow fan, but today’s compounds are more devastating at long range and just as easy to shoot accurately IMO.

[Ben M.]

#42567

lyagooshka wrote: Some places (Valley Forge comes to mind) have to call in sharp-shooters…

You bring up a very specific circumstance here –the use of xguns in a urban environment– and, to me, it seems like a pretty good use of the things. I’ve hunted urban ground (halfway into Kansas City, KS) and seen some of the highest concentrations of deer I’ve ever seen. It’s a densely populated area (meaning humans) and guns are simply not an option. There are extended archery seasons there to encourage hunters but they still call in sharp shooters from time to time. (The meat is given to homeless shelters.) I could see the benefit of an “archery plus crossbow” season in an urban environment, but with a distinct line drawn between archery equipment and crossbow equipment.

[James Harvey]

#42574

Prairie Prowler and others – I don’t like crossbows, where I’m from they’re legally restricted and controlled in the same way as firearms (I think for the sole safety reason that they can be ‘loaded’ and consequently can be unintentionally discharged).

The vast majority of arguments I see made against xbows would be equally applicable to traditional v compound bows as well. Which is an argument already lost in the public sphere of debate. The non-hunter (read legislator) doesn’t seem to care about all the arguments that we seem to find self evident.

Honestly, in all the reading I’ve done the only argument that I’ve read that is not a rehash of the anti-compound bow debate is that a bow must be drawn in the presence of your quarry, where a xbow does not. I think the gravity of that difference will be very much lost on the non-hunter.

I don’t envy you guys having to fight this battle at all. But I think all the arguments I’ve seen made are pretty well doomed to failure from the start, if for no other reason than historical precedence.

Just one more peanut opinion to consider.

[Ralph]

#42577

My thinking! Again not debating killing ability but only hitting the spot, I watched two guys last year having a shoot off with very fast compounds. A 3D elk target, closest to 10 ring, move back 5 yards if both in 10 ring beginning at 50 yds. Winner, 105 yds. with a 12, 2nd with a 10 and conceded. Not my game but still impressive. xbow offhand shooting probably to most about as sloppy as most folks shooting offhand with a rifle???

[archer38]

#42630

I certainly don’t want to rock the boat here so PLEASE don’t jump all over me for this. I’m not a fan of crossbows or the folks who “choose” to use them simply to extend their season…..BUT….

As a hunter I can’t help but feel it is totally detrimental to the sport of hunting when we, as hunters, attack each other.

As stated, I don’t like crossbows either but we’re only helping the anti’s when we fight amongst ourselves. There are far too many other forces trying to shut us down, lets not do it for them.

[Brennan Herr]

#42657

All nice points! But for me crossbows are not archery. If you want to use one that’s great but it should be used during a firearms season. I support its use for those that can not draw a bow. I love to use my rifle to hunt deer…but I don’t do it in archery season even though I could use an inline muzzleloader for a week in October. Just more of my thoughts!!! Time to cook dinner the boys are restless!

[n8tr boy]

#42714

I don’t reply to many threads on any forums I ‘m viewing but this topic could get me in trouble with you fine folk. I am a x-bow hunter. I also have recurve, trad and wheelie compound.I ENJOY using them ALL. The compound is a Mathews Q2 and is as much a killing machine as the Excaliber x-bow. I have both dial in that I can hit a coffee cup lid at 25 yards.

I wouldn’t go beyond that with any of my bows. I am an ethical hunter and believe I want a clean harvest. I owe it to myself as well as the animal. that is what God wants Us to do.

I see new compounds coming out with 35-+ speeds and noone complains about that but a x-bow hold on here that is a gun. It has a trigger,yes, so does a compound, its called a release. It has a scope or peep sights, so do compounds, look it up no always used in hunting more target but some do.

I think we should be happy that we can enjoy the outdoors and continue to enjoy an activity that we can STILL do . If PETA and the rest would have their way we’d be overrun by wildlife that we couldn’t eat. That would be a shame

My 2 cents , do with it what you will

[Ralph]

#42722

I was disappointed when Texas allowed xbows during archery season but I keep on hunting my way, other people hunt their way and as long as all is legal and the hunting is ethical it is what it is. I’m just grateful we’re all still hunting. There are a lot of places in the world where hunting has different methods and morals than we do and that’s what they do and what we do is what we do. I’m just be glad we can hunt and I’m still able to. I have never considered myself a purist, I love to rifle hunt also and I’ll put a worm on a hook on the end of my flyrod and catch brookies. Everyone just enjoy be well.

[Ben M.]

#42799

I don’t see anything unethical about hunting with crossbows, and I certainly don’t intend to deride their users. The issue, as I see it, is the advantage that a hunting tool affords a hunter over his/her prey. Tools that afford greater advantage necessarily deserve less time afield, as they will ultimately produce more kills. I also use multiple tools to hunt with. Although I most enjoy hunting with my recurve, I still make full use of the rifle season; because, c’mon now, I have 5 people to feed. I’d sure throw a fit if I wasn’t allowed to hunt with my rifle but, at the same time, I don’t support extending the season beyond its current limits.

Perhaps the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Crossbows, like muzzle loading guns, don’t afford as much advantage as a centerfire rifle but do afford more advantage than archery gear. Maybe crossbows should be allowed during muzzle loader seasons! Sounds reasonable to me. Also, as I said before, extended crossbow seasons in urban environments seems very reasonable.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#42832

Can’t say I’ve seen anyone in this thread so far “bashing” on crossbow hunters as a group, or merely because of the hunting weapon they’ve chosen. The discussion to this point really hasn’t been about that, nor is it about “driving a wedge” between different hunter groups. Instead, it is what should be allowable at different times of the year, and what user groups are compatible when hunting at the same time.

I fully understand that today’s compound bows may be faster and even have a longer effective range. And in many ways, both have really become high-tec machines more than they are actually still “bows” (not a slight against people that use either one by any means, but an objective description of the mechanism, imo). But the fact that one can walk around with a crossbow fully loaded and just a trigger pull away from shooting, without having to draw on game at close range, is not a minor detail, in my opinion. It is a significant difference.

[n8tr boy]

#43337

Sorry PraireP, it was your tune that I had implied as I first read your post.:oops: I have a tendancy to do that even at home:wink:. I understand where you all are coming from now.

I to enjoy very much the lighter tools of our outdoor hobby/ lifestyle and how it brings the old instincts to the surface.

[Michael Scott]

#43371

I watched a long distance shoot at a 3D shoot once….a bunch of Staff shooters for the compound outfits. It was fun to watch. They started at 50 yards, shooting a 1 to 1 1/2″ orange dot stuck to the side of a buffalo target. Rule was, they had to hit the dot…not just touch it with the shaft….actually break the edge of the paper. The last two guys were shooting somewhere between 120 and 130 yards with their compounds. Simply amazing. I finally walked away and went and shot aerial targets with a bunch of the other traditional shooters….we couldn’t get any of the compound guys to come play with us…LOL! Good times had by all. Have a good day.

[lyagooshka]

#43525

N8tr boy wrote: If PETA and the rest would have their way we’d be overrun by wildlife that we couldn’t eat. That would be a shame

And let’s not forget the rotting corpses of animals that died of disease, hunger, road accidents, etc. Yeah, no on e wins in their “utopia”.

Anyway, I hope this isn’t a repeat but talkibng about taking LONG shots…

Sorry Mr. Hill, 187 just ain’t cuttin’ it no more.

Be well.

Alex

😕

[paleoman]

#43526

I may get my butt handed to me for this Neanderthal thinking… but a lot of the modern tech bows are for Grandmas and weenies:P! No offense to anyone here. Just another monkey at the zoo throwing poop I am and an opinion worth less than 2 cents:lol:

[Ralph]

#43619

Wait a minute! Rambo was no Grandma!! :lol::lol:

[lyagooshka]

#43621

And soviet choppers don’t blow up when hit by an arrow, but who’s keeping track… 😆 😆 😆

[Ralph]

#43623

Just gotta have the right stuff right! Just think how bad he coulda been running around with an xbow cocked and locked! He’d probably try to take on the Marines or something. Semper Fi! :lol::lol:

Can ya tell I’m bored. Think I better go out back and shoot before I get on the receiving end even more so.

[n8tr boy]

#43644

The way he had to pull back on that youtube video, I bet he had that bow maxed out to reach the 240 yds. Good for him , notice hit was just hitting the target not in the zone.

[Michael Scott]

#43939

Back home, in Montana, crossbows are restricted to the general rifle season. Also, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks gives a specific definition of what a bow is. They do allow special attachments for bow hunters with disabilities. Beyond that, if it isn’t hand drawn and held at full draw by your own strength, you can’t use it during the Archery Only season.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with crossbows, as long as they are used in an ethical manner. I don’t believe they belong in archery season, anywhere. I don’t plan to buy one or use one. They are fine for people that either physically need them or just want them.

Just my two round pieces of copper, rubbed together.

[WICanner]

#44027

So what will those states that allow them say when crossguns become self cocking and multi bolt repeating?

OPPS??? 🙄

[wolfkill220]

#44151

In washington state crossbow allowed during archery season for disabled hunters.Must have doctor sign off that you can not shoot a compound or trad bow. No scopes must be iron sight.

[Mark Turton]

#44284

Shot at my local club this weekend with a couple of guys using xbows, said nothing just interested to see how they performed, both were scoped with illuminated reticules, I was not impressed by accuracy offhand, if there was some form of support available then they were consistently accurate at both short and long range 50 mtrs+. I was offered a shot but politely declined.

Having given it some thought xbows are more a substitute for a rifle, just my thoughts.

Mark.

[ccrconner]

#44495

Indiana also has allowed crossbows during archery season sad to say. Pesonally I have no objection to hadicapped use or use during muzzel loading season. But I agree with Prairy Prowler on it giving false data on harvest reports. But in Indiana it’s all about money!

ccrconner

[Ralph]

#44588

Not an xbow but I couldn’t help it. Excuse the caveman art but that’s just me….

[lyagooshka]

#44663

The following is from the PA Hunter / Trapper Safety Course, which is required in order to get a hunting license.

This section on X-Bows is new, but notice the claim they are making (after having legalized them for ANY archery season) and also, look at the distance they are “advocating”. True, they are not coming right out and saying “take a 40 yard shot…”, but does a 12 year old going through this course have enough experience to tell that a shot like that will end badly more times than not [IMHO]? Just a thought. I usually teach this section of the course as I am probably the only archer in the group. I try to point that out in the most “diplomatic” way possible without sounding preachy (which we are not allowed to do).

I also teach the bowhunting class. Thing about that class is that most of the instructors are “trad” folks. Actually, there has been a problem getting instructors for the Bowhunting class in SE PA as several instructors quit in protest when X-Bows became legal. First year they were legalized, it was “iron-sights only” or no “magnifying” scopes. Second year it was “anything goes”. 40X scopes, red dots, radar, UAV, whatever (though I don’t think lasers are legal [yet]). Oh well, whatcha gonna do? Be well.

Alex

😕

[skifrk]

#44671

I disagree with others who shrug their shoulders and say what are you going to do about it. I think we should take a vocal stand, after all we were able to push it back here in CO keep them out of archery season they are only allowed for disabled and that’s it, only allowed in regular firearm season. As I noticed here in CO and others have noticed is the NRA is one of the big ones pushing X-bows in hunting season which I find to be a very bad thing to the point I pulled any support I had for them. I also agree a lot with prairie prowler in that they will skew data and if we have in archery season long enough it will just take time but we will start to have rifle season advocates proposing to eliminate archery season if that happens.

[Etter1]

#44830

Just watched that video.

Had a couple folks like that camped near us at blackbeard island this year. Living stereotypes.

[Author]

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