A club for those of us without any back country

[Steve Capps]

#3340

While I admire the efforts of organizations like BHA, I live in an area where traditional hunting efforts of any stripe long ago fell victim to the greed driven machine called trophy hunting. It seems like everybody is convinced that big bucks are the only prerequisite to take home a big buck. There seems to be no shortage of make it easier products and services. Habitat is manipulated by competing outfitters. Landowners lease to the highest bidder. Meanwhile states are cutting back on funding for public places and those that exist are overcrowded. How do we undo the damage already done? Is there a conservation focused group out there for us?

[Doc Nock]

#18836

Since both folks are gone and I’m now retired, I’ve been doing some research and even some travel to seek out new place to live out what years I have left…Requisite: Good hunting without having to pack these old bones too far back “in”.

What I saw was most states with any type decent hunting, over the counter, that I could afford to consider, were being eaten up with leased land… and all that goes with it.

I surely can’t begrudge farmers/ranchers who risk everything, in hock to their eyes, and live by the whims of nature for wanting to get something back for crop depredation or the taxes paid.

But technology, in many forms when taken to the end to “make it easier” rather than part of the outdoor experience, leasing, high dollars for access…all create a question of “where now, brown cow?”

When the masses cannot find places to go with the well-heeled few then still carry the freight on their shoulders for research, and all that goes with the great tradition of hunting in this country? ???

[David Petersen]

#18842

While BHA’s name is misleading–in fact it’s a sportsman-conservation group trying to save public wildlife habitat for the public and the wildlife–it is definitely about public lands so less acutely resonant for so much of America that has little to none.

Tragically, you guys are onto something, and I fear it is indeed the “future” of “hunting” without public land. BHA is trying to keep the industrialists and others from doing to public lands what you already have to deal with in private lands.

When I was a kid you didn’t even have to ask to hunt … just drive into the country, park the car and start walking. A wholly different world today! Might it have anything to do with quadrupling our population in those 50 years or so?

Wisdom is always so much easier to find in retrospect.

[Doc Nock]

#18863

the next to last paragraph, David, is one mouthful “Driver!”

I resemble that comment as well.

As land disappears for quality hunting… so will the numbers of us who will continue to pursue the lore of the outdoors!

Sorta a “super noval” type thing I fear… but lets hope there is hope!

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#18886

stchunter48 –

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I can sympathize with how frustrating it can be. It’s true that BHA’s mission is focused on public land issues, but we are also focused on other public resource issues as well, as they pertain to sportsmen – and in many states, so far I know, wildlife, water, etc. are still considered state-managed, publicly-held resources.

BHA has also increasingly been approached by people who live in states that do not necessarily have the abundant public land found in much of the west, but who want to start a state chapter anyway – to help protect the public land that still does exist, and also to have an organized platform to promote traditional hunting values, boots-on-the-ground work to restore and improve habitat and to advocate for wildlife from a sportsman’s perspective. These are things that you don’t have to live in a western state with lots of public land in order to advocate for.

My suggestion is to seek out like-minded individuals in your state – it may not feel like it, but they’re out there. Talk about these things that you care about with them. Build a “core group.” Go to public meetings that pertain to sportsman’s issues, and let people know what you care about and stand for. We can’t give up, and there’s more of us than you might think. 😉

[Steve Capps]

#18890

I realize the importance of preserving the wild places we still have. I would hate to see the impact of motorized vehicles in places like the Sangre de Cristos which has been my only real wilderness experience. Still I wonder what we can do to help create a wilderness experience in the not-so-wild world most of us live in.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#18971

stchunter48 wrote: ….Still I wonder what we can do to help create a wilderness experience in the not-so-wild world most of us live in.

I certainly don’t have all the answers to what is a huge question, but for starters:

1) Advocate for reasonabe restrictions on off-road motorized vehicle use during hunting seasons, significant fines for violations, and visible licensing if youer state doesn’t already require it.

2) Don’t let archery seasons become watered down, and work to limit the encroachment of more and more technology into archery seasons. It’s critical to the preservation of archery seasons, or the argument can, and soon will, be made that archery seasons have become so high-tech that they should be shortened significantly. We have to preserve the “primitive weapon” spirit in which these seasons were fought for and created.

3) Share this video with all bowhunters that you know, whether they be trad or compound shooters:

[Charles Ek]

#19009

David Petersen wrote: Might it have anything to do with quadrupling our population in those 50 years or so?

It, and virtually every other environmental issue, has everything to do with this.

I’m a BHA member living in NH and I support its nationwide objectives. But my fairly harsh advice to the original poster is the path I’ve followed for the last many years: Find a way to relocate out of the Midwest. The population density and the politics of resource management are antithetical to the experiences you’re seeking.

Gotta go find my Nomex now …

[Anonymous]

#19463

A wonderful discussion…

Something that BHA has taken to in its mission, especially as we expand into the East, is the concept not only of public lands but also “publicly accessible lands”. Think about Maine, for example. There are huge tracts of land that are open to public access for hunting, hiking, camping, and angling. Yet, these are private lands; timber company lands primarily but also land trust and The Nature Conservancy properties. These areas offer the “backcountry” experience to many through public access but are not public lands in the same ways that federal or state lands are in other places. In many ways, these lands require even more work on our part to keep open than do the federal and state lands: the fed/state properties HAVE to remain open to public use; the private lands (timber company, land trust, TNC) could be closed with a gate and signage tomorrow if we don’t do our part as good stewards, guests, and users.

Another point is that just because your state might not have much in the way of “backcountry” lands (BTW – Illinois actually has 8 federally designated Wilderness areas, so there are “backcountry areas” even in Illinois), that does not mean that BHA won’t welcome you as we try to keep those areas you have, push for more backcountry lands (wilderness and otherwise), and work in other states that are available for you to hunt at the price of travel and a non-resident permit.

What you can do in your own “backyard” to support “backcountry” ranges across the spectrum. You can access the areas that you have available now, so that you can understand them and be an advocate with first-hand experience. You can bring others with you. You can do as Smithhammer says, and fight to keep traditions “traditional”. You can go from those things all the way up to joining BHA (if you haven’t already; we’ll welcome you in), and working with us and other groups as we advocate for backcountry across the country. There are a LOT of us here, and we’re more than happy to continue this conversation in whatever venue and direction you choose.

[Anonymous]

#19546

David Petersen wrote: While BHA’s name is misleading–in fact it’s a sportsman-conservation group trying to save public wildlife habitat for the public and the wildlife–it is definitely about public lands so less acutely resonant for so much of America that has little to none.

Tragically, you guys are onto something, and I fear it is indeed the “future” of “hunting” without public land. BHA is trying to keep the industrialists and others from doing to public lands what you already have to deal with in private lands.

When I was a kid you didn’t even have to ask to hunt … just drive into the country, park the car and start walking. A wholly different world today! Might it have anything to do with quadrupling our population in those 50 years or so?

Wisdom is always so much easier to find in retrospect.

To the emphasized point above: the only way that happens is if one side further exploits the natural bounty of the public lands to a ridiculous degree AND the other side demonizes hunters and hunting to the point that it is verboten on public lands to a similarly ridiculous degree. One alone isn’t possible of the entire dastardly deed; both together are.

Speaking for myself, I’ll be damned if they accomplish that while I have breath left to fight them and if by some means they accomplish it while I still stand… well, I’ll be an outlaw blocking one and flouting the other.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#19661

Forager wrote:

…Speaking for myself, I’ll be damned if they accomplish that while I have breath left to fight them and if by some means they accomplish it while I still stand… well, I’ll be an outlaw blocking one and flouting the other.

Amen.

[Col Mike]

#19931

Stchunter48

Lot’s of good info and discussion here, Forager , Dave and the Hammer as usual right on. From our little piece of wild in western Md. a victory today:

http://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news/annapolis/md-senate-passes-bill-to-add-wildland-acres/article_05a83552-95d7-11e3-8f75-0017a43b2370.html

> [1]

Never doubt what a small group of informed citizens can do–despite the odds. I won’t discuss the politics or the politicians involved so this won’t get deleted8)

Semper Fi

Mike

[Steve Capps]

#20880

Ooh-ra! That’s great news Colonel and some beautiful country as well. How did this effort get started? Who championed the cause and how were they organized?

[Col Mike]

#21026

stchunter48

Good question—this actually started from state DNR, hotly opposed by most of the folks here as they had this thought it would remove resources from the pocket book. As our total population compares to a couple of city blocks down state we are really not a powerhouse of votes.

Good organization from local university–tree huggers with long hair, hiking boots and backpacks did a great job educating the uninformed. When I spoke with the DNR Sect. some months ago he told me that it was a done deal no matter what our Senator and Delegate said:D Sometimes the gov. does good despite themselves.

Mike

[ugly arrow]

#26711

Stchunter48,

Are you a member of the united bowhunters of Illinois? The UBI is a traditional group where you will find people battling the same issues.

[wahoo]

#27344

48 I feel for you. I think I no where you are coming from ??? I live in a area that has tons of public land but with the attitude of don’t tell me what I can and can’t do . Everybody just wants to drive and throw garbage and tear everything up – it’s bad you know – I belong to several clubs and I try to keep tabs of where the meetings are and then I have to travel but when I get there it is a relieve to be around like thinking folks.Take note of what folks like Smith and others have said and I wish you the best.

[grumpy]

#33296

Here in MA there is no such thing as “wilderness experience.” On the other hand we have 2 new Wildlife Management Areas in the neighborhood. Not a lot of land, but they all have deer, and that 400 lb bear is still out there somewhere. What I am seeing is trout streams that were dead 50 years ago (like the Millers) are now fishable, and self sustaining.

I like to think that is because of what us old hippies started back in the ’60s, and efforts of TROUT UNLIMITED. The best places I am finding to hunt are along the trout streams that TU has worked on.

[MAT]

#34316

As someone who fought the good fight but lost we desperately needed BHA in every state to be the voice of reason. We are constantly told we have to stick together or else, and we can’t speak up against other so call “hunting” organizations that are obviously not holding our best interests at hand.

As good soldiers we sit and watch our heritage being slowly eroded away because we can’t say anything or else we believe we will lose everything. Be it ATVs, crossbows, or more access to wildlands many of our own are tainted by money and politics, yet claim they represent all of us. Silence is our worst enemy.

[Bruce Smithhammer]

#34334

Well said, and welcome to the forum.

[David Petersen]

#34388

What the Hammer said!

[Steve Capps]

#34524

Thanks for all the great responses. They got me thinking about a piece of state land along the Illinois River. Its mostly wetlands and waterways but there are pockets of river bottom timber. Most of all it is difficult to access. I think I may spend a little time exploring there this year. I am also going to get involved with a conservation group that works to protect that section of the river. Maybe a good project for a local BHA chapter if there were such a thing.

[Stephen Graf]

#35049

Very inspirational stuff! Wish I had some good advice, but i don’t.

All I can do is make you feel better by pointing out there are worse places to live. NC for example. Our draconian Governor and his cohorts in the legislature have rolled back clean air and water regulations to the ’50’s. Now they are repealing the fracking ban that has been in place since the ’40’s.

I think the problem here in the east is the super sized and entrenched companies that basically run the show. Duke power for example. But at least the Federal AG is sniffing around after they dumped all that coal ash in the Dan River.

When you have a cradle to grave company like duke (Duke hospital to bring you into the world, Duke cigarettes and Coal fired power plants to make you sick, Duke hospital to see you out of the word) it’s hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Our Governor and at least 10 legislators have been duke employee’s all their life. ug.

[grumpy]

#35325

stchunter48 wrote: They got me thinking about a piece of state land along the Illinois River. Its mostly wetlands and waterways but there are pockets of river bottom timber. Most of all it is difficult to access. I think I may spend a little time exploring there this year.

I’m using my kayak to access one of our WMAs.

[Steve Capps]

#35656

Kayak might be just the ticket for me. I was planning to do some canoe trips and some from a pontoon bowfishing rig.

[David Petersen]

#36913

Great thread! And welcome to the new voices here. Hammer–you spoke of technology threatening traditional “primitive weapons” seasons, which I too have warned about for years in response to the kind-hearted folks who say “It’s a personal choice what weapon we carry.” Alas, right this minute here in CO–and this will affect anyone in the world who ever wants to come hunt elk in CO–we are undergoing the five-year big game season planning process, which will set the regs for the next five years. Things have gotten so overcrowded in the Sept. elk season–archery is 28 days overlain by 9 days of muzzle-loader, and way too many of them all riding around on ATVs and blowing on bugles as if that were their only means of taking a breath. Compounds have lowered the gates of skill and dedication so greatly that huge numbers of folks who previously would have only used rifle, now are enjoying the benefits of the archery season, while taking crazy long shots and generally messing everything up. Same story for the muzzies. So now the pressure on elk in Sept. is so tremendous that the animals are abandoning public lands in many units on the opening day of archery–plenty of research backing this plus what we hunters are seeing for ourselves. Off the elk go to private lands where no one can hunt them. Rifle hunters, who come later, are raising caine and no wonder. While it’s clear what is driving the elk out–ATVs and endless awful bugling–it’s politically impossible for CPW to fix what’s broken so expect to see limited arche3ry elk tags henceforth in the best elk units in the state. It’s too late here, Hammer. No one ever listens until it’s too late, because no one ever wants to give up anything. So we all lose. What we need is more hunters? Give me a break …

Grumpy … yessir, hooray for old hippies! And two horray’s for TU. They are definitely our allies. And someone mentioned hunting on Nature Conservancy property … while the average hunter and hunter’s group today, just by having the word “Nature” in their name, would call that outfit enviros, greens, thus antis. We have become an insufferably stupid species, and all the more dangerous because one type of intelligence, cleverness, has so vastly outrun the other type of intelligence, wisdom. Time for a beer, Sunday or not.

[Col Mike]

#36951

Dave’s rant is right on again as is Steve’s. Here in W. MD the anti-fracking battle is in the legislative session for the 3rd year–results yet to be known. As Steve said about NC we are battling big money and cooperation’s that care little about our space ship.

Mat–welcome aboard and you are right, silence is not an option. Join the fight.

Semper Fi

Mike

[Col Mike]

#38254

Dave

Any report on the next 5 year regulations?

Mike

[David Petersen]

#39143

Mike, the planning process has only just begun. CO Parks and Wildlife (CPW) will be taking hunter comments through March 31, and the wildlife commission will make its decisions in Sept. to set the big game hunting season structure, and related issues like “methods of take” for the next five years. While engaged groups and individuals (like me) will continue to lobby the commissioners directly until it’s a done deal, this month is the best op for general input. For anyone who has hunted big game in CO in the past three years, no matter weapon, you can fill out CPWs online survey and I encourage you to do so. Like most surveys it is narrow in focus and doesn’t strike me as sufficient, but they likely know what they’re doing. With the online survey they provide no place for extended written comments at the bottom, as they do with the version you print out and mail in (just add extra pages). However, some of the questions include comment boxes and you can put your comments in those, whether or not related directly to the question. Clearly, whoever wrote the survey didn’t anticipate that overcrowding and elk rut disturbance in the first season would become a top issue, as it quickly has. The simultaneously funny and tragic aspect of human nature revealed in this process is our amazing self-servingness and lack of big-picture altruism. Most rifle hunters will push for total limiting of archery tags, which they correctly perceive (at this level of disturbance) as chasing elk onto private land and cutting down on their changes in the later rifle seasons. Most bowhunters, myself included, want muzzle-loader out of archery season because it’s so damn disruptive and instantly stops all bugling and you can see the elk herding up and heading for the far horizon. Yet archers aren’t at all willing to give up anything, nor is anyone else. I work really hard to think not about “my fair share of season opportunities,” but about impacts on wildlife. If you’ve seen problems in the Sept. season–ATVs, too much bugling, muzzle-loading disruption, overcrowding, whatever–find a place on the survey form to tell CPW about it. It’s now, or wait another five years. Here’s the link:

http://wildlife.state.co.us/Hunting/BigGame/SeasonStructure/Pages/BGS.htm

If it doesn’t work directly as a hot link (I get a message that it can’t be found), cut and paste it into the google search bar. I have been told that trad bowhunters are such a tiny minority, with equally tiny political clout, that we don’t have a chance of placing the blame for overcrowding and rut disruption where it belongs–with the high-tech mobs. If elk permits go limited we all will suffer equally (though frankly not that much). But I’m darned sure going to tell them what I’ve seen out there in recent years so at least we’re not a silent minority. BHA has also sent out a survey to CO members specifically asking for opinions on the Sept. seasons. This is simply so we’ll know where our members stand on these issues, since BHA will not be wading in on season structures as a group, since we have members from all weapons types and peace in the family is more important.

[Steve Capps]

#39286

I read somewhere that Washington was hosting a series of meetings around the state this spring specifically looking at the archery season. Here in Illinois there is a move afoot to make wholesale changes to the seasons and tag structure. Currently a bowhunter can buy virtually unlimited tags and the numbers of deer harvested has equalled the total number of hunters making it look like Illinois bowhunters have 100% success. Outfitter manipulation of the herd through the importation of trophy breeder bucks released into wild stock brought CWD. The combined harvest numbers are way down and the number of deer found dead way up.

[Col Mike]

#39441

The simultaneously funny and tragic aspect of human nature revealed in this process is our amazing self-servingness and lack of big-picture altruism.

Dave–Thanks for that lengthy and insightful response. Couldn’t agree more with that quote above. It’s really a shame that the health of the animals is not our prime concern in these matters.

Haven’t hunted in CO for last 3 years so won’t be filling out the form–darn.

Mike

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