Same problem here in Wy. A few friends and myself were hunting an area this weekend where we rarely see another person and generally find lots of elk. We set up base camp Friday night near the road and listend to bulls scream all night long. Then about 4 am the parade began. A constant stream of 4 wheelers and side by sides up and down the road, they’d drive to the dead end and back and continued to do so from 4 am until we left camp. Even though the bulls were bugling close to camp all night, once the traffic picked up they shut up and headed deep. We didn’t get into elk until we were 1.5 miles from the road.
So, I guess the benefit to all the ATV traffic is it pushes the elk in deep enought that only those willing to go after them will have the pleasure of packing one out. O and you’ll should never get lost, because even 1.5 miles in we could still hear the hum from ATVs on the road.
Even though this is a long post I must share this: Friday night as we were driving in we met a pick up on the rough and narrow FS road with the most interesting set up. There were 2 guys in the front, both with Primos Hoochie mamma calls hanging out the window. In the back was a woman and a teenage male, both on there knees facing opposite directions, and heres the best part, arrows knocked and ready to rock.

No blood so far. I have seven days left in the season, 4 of which I’m chained to my desk.

I’m not sure if you read Bugle, but there is an article on page 15 of the Sept./Oct. 2009 issue you should check out. Basically a proposed travel management plan in the White River National forest would cut the total miles of ATV routes in half.

Hiram and SDMF — I am surprised and disappointed that there are only the two of you on this thread! There is no greater “threat” (in fact, it’s no threat but a reality) to traditional bowhunting on public lands today than ATV abuse and overuse. Even the legal riders — not just a “few bad apples” but most of the whole damn orchard it seems! — are messing things up for us all, including themselves because there are way too many of them out there, riding way too much. DOW was right to send you to the FS as it’s that agency’s primary responsibility to enforce OHV laws on public lands. But they have only one officer for a huge area and he’s notoriously lazy. However, a lot of folks including me and the state OHV group leaders worked hard and a year ago got legislation passed that authorizes DOW wardens to bust illegal ORV users … so at the least the person in the DOW office should have also told you they would alert the warden responsble for Missionary Ridge, a great guy named Drayton Harrison.

This is happening to more and more real hunters all over the country, on public land and private. Many are outraged … but so few get involved in fighting it! In that way, “we” deserve the crapping-on that we’re getting from the motorheads, who are organized and determined to continue and expand their slob sport. This lack of widespread hunter oppositiion to the motorized take-over really frustrates and disheartens those relative few of us who do fight back. Check out http://www.backcountryhunters.org for the leading national group working against ATV abuse and overuse (check their ads in every issue of TBM, bless TBM), and for CO specifically go to http://www.coloradobackcountryhunters.org.

Thanks guys for bringing up this topic, and all of you other trad brothers who read but haven’t commented … please, don’t just cluck your tongues in agreement with our plight, but join us to fight back!

This year, the only two trad bowhunters I’ve talked to around here who killed elk — Thomas Downing and myself — both put out the effort to get far away from the motors. It’s hard to road camp and do that, as we always could until a decade ago when the motors took over. If we don’t fight back hard right now, we’ll lose it all to the lazy and willfully ignorant. That’s us as well as them. That’s the world we live in. “Use the ‘quads’ God gave you!” Dave

I hunted elk in a roadless area this year, but rode my 4 wheeler to the trailhead from camp (about a mile) each day. I put in 6 to 10 miles a day on foot, using my own “quads”. During the summer, I ride a 4 wheeler to a couple of fishing spots and ride established trails. I have never used it to hunt on or from, and don’t plan on it, but I do believe that there are legitimate uses of 4 wheelers. Hunting, in my opinion, is NOT one of those legitimate uses. I don’t hunt in places where 4 wheelers are rampant. As someone who owns and enjoys some 4 wheeling, I am disgusted by those who can’t get off their fat asses and wear out some boot leather. By the way, in 8 days of hunting elk in a roadless area, I did not see one elk.

I would not expect much help from the Forest Service. Last week I hunted in the Piedra Primitive area northwest of Pagosa Springs and had an outfitter pack me in and drop my partner and me off in a drop camp. Our outfitter advised me that the week before there had been 2 guys on 2-stroke dirt bikes from the FS up where we were gonna be. Great:roll: Remember…this area is a primitive area and off limits to any motorized vehicles. Supposedly, they had a “special” permit to be up there so they could take pictures of the trails. Our outfitter said he caught them racing their bikes all over hell and creation and doing stunts on their bikes. When we got up there we could see their tracks everywhere:evil: As a result the hunting was terrible, albeit, it was very hot last week. Nevertheless, this did not preclude me from killing a bull, but unfortunately, that was the only elk we saw all week.

So…if the national forest service doesn’t have enough sense to keep their own personnel from riding around the country side on ATV’s in a primitive area during hunting season (Why the hell they couldn’t do their picture taking during the summer????:evil:) then I wouldn’t expect them to be very proactive for our cause.

Personally, I think they should ban ATV’s altogether from the national forest. They are a nuisance and a disruption to wildlife and real hunters.

Brett

The 4-wheeler is the devil’s spawn! They only have one legitimate purpose and that is farm and ranch work. The National Forest lands and BLM lands have been damaged beyond repair by years of abuse. Yes, I’ve heard all of the arguments, we need them to get out our game, I only use them to access the trailhead, or my favorite one is “I have never taken mine off road.” Well someone has and is continuing to do so. Had a conversation with a bowhunter last week in Eastern Idaho where ATV use by hunters is restricted to roads that allow fullsize vehicles. I tried to reason with him, before he headed up a closed trail, no he said it is open, and drove right past me. that is the norm here in the west.I’m talking Public land yours, mine and our children, shouldn’t it matter to you that these people on their machines are spoiling your heritage?

Centaur — You obviously are among the “good” ATV users, but still I must agree with those who wonder how in hell our best public lands backcountry, even on roads and authorized trails, ever was allowed to become a “legitimate use.” It’s purely inappropriate. A researcher friend of mine who’s tracking motorized impacts (on roads as well as off) on elk has coined the term “vehicle spawning.” In the old days, there were one or two vehicles in a camp and the hunters who didn’t want to hunt on foot out of camp worked it out to be dropped off and picked up at dark. Now, those one or two vehichles each pull a trailer with 2 or 4 ATVs and suddenly, rather than one vehicle running the roads we have 5; rather than 2 we have 10. That’s why I always complain about “ATV abuse and overuse.” Even the riders who obey the laws and try to minimize the problems they create, still are part of the problem. Withal, I agree with Larry. If you can get there in a regular vehicle on authorized forest roads, have at it. Otherwise, vehicles have no place in our public backcountry, well intended and law abiding or not. It’s simply inappropriate and if nothing else, ruins the mood and experience for the rest of us who are looking to escape the sound of motors and the crowds such easy access brings. Larry is older than shit and I’m twice as old. Larry really screwed up his knee trying to lift a million pounds and I have the usual arthritis etc. that comes with old age. Yet we walk everywhere, and haul it out on our backs. No criticism intended, Centaur, but only trying to explain how it feels, and sounds, to those of us who have lost so much to ATV abuse and overuse. By the way, a “roadless” area isn’t absolutely roadless as many have unauthorized “roads” resulting from abandoned logging roads, etc. And way too many have authorized ATV and dirt bike trails. But still, they’re our best bet. Again this year that’s where I got my bull … after the Pyrodex rifle mobs hit their starters, pressed down their thumbs and motored away. Hey, it’s no fun being so negative, but after my wife and dogs, I’ll fight to the death to protect my hunting space! Cheers, dave

Dave,
During hunting season my atv doesn’t go anywhere that you couldn’t take your truck; I kind of like my truck, and would rather use the 4 wheeler than beat up my Chevy. I don’t road hunt; never have and if I get too feeble to walk in, I will quit hunting. The roadless area that I hunted elk in this year is proposed to be wilderness, and there are no roads, but there are cattle trails (way too many of them, if you ask me). I have hunted wilderness for over 30 years, and the only time I didn’t do it on foot was when I hired an outfitter to do a drop camp 20 miles deep. I can’t stand the idiot atv operators either, and I agree that in many roaded areas they screw up the hunting for everybody. I don’t hunt where atv use is rampant for the same reasons that you state in your argument. I am your age or older, so I know about the aches and pains of the ‘golden years’, but I do all my hunting on foot, too. Had I killed an elk this year, I would have hauled it out on my back. I’m not trying to get in a pissing contest; I just believe that the atv is not the problem so much as the lazy operators who won’t get off them, and the slobs who act like they are in NASCAR in the backcountry. I will bet that I don’t like them every bit as much as you don’t, and maybe even more. I certainly believe in strict regulation of atv operation on public land, and those who ride off trails and act irresponsibly should be punished within the letter of the law. And yes, the Forest Service is understaffed and abuse certainly goes unpunished often. I have seen and reported atv abuses to the FS, but I don’t know what ever became of my complaints. If I am to get painted under the broad brush of slob hunter because I own and operate an atv, then I guess that is just a cross I will have to bear. I’m a big boy, I can handle it. By the way, glad you got your elk. I will have to survive on whitetail and moo cow this year. And thanks for your service, both in the military and as an advocate for ethical hunting. I did the same job in the military that your bio says you did, but I wore Army clothes rather than USMC fatigues. I’m guessing that you are also a silver medalist in the SE Asia war games, and thanks for that.

What many hunters don’t realize is the extent of the direct negative impact that motorized access has on wildlife in general and elk in particular. Dave brings up a good point by saying that a decade ago, you could “road camp” and do well on elk wear as today, it’s just not the case. The growing popularity of ATV’s over the past decade has essentially made vast swaths of habitat “unavailable” to elk. The habitat is still there, and in many cases it looks like it’s in good shape(except for the ATV trails), but because of the species behavioral response to motorized traffic, they just don’t use it. There’s plenty of literature that elk just aren’t generally found within a half mile of an open motorized trail. Of course there are exceptions to this and things like cover type and topography weigh heavily on the rule.

BTW, for the Idaho folks, take a look in the big game regs. There’s a full page ad for ATVs right in the middle. What kind of message is that sending?:evil:

Clay — Until a few years ago the CO regs were Filled with ATV ads. A bunch of us hunters got together and launched a campaign against this, and lo and behold today the regs are ATV free. Those of you who still belong to RMEF should do the same re Bugle’s ATV ads. Ethically, that group has really gone down the tubes in recent years … but that’s another gripe. In fact, my backpack timberline muley hunt this year was spoiled not by ATVs, but by a constant stream of mountain bikers running the CO Trail. Wilderness is the Only place left we can get away from the wheely crowds, and the bikers are launching a push for access and blocking new wilderness. Never expected that, but it is what it is. dave

I habitually carry a digital camera with me and if I do see such things going on it is an easy task to take a few pictures or video and send a copy to the officials along with a formal complaint on the matter. If I do not get a reply or see any action I send the information up the ladder another notch with two complaints.

Dennis

I have refrained from commenting on this subject for fear my language would not be appropriate.
Centuar I feel for you as one of the good guys defending yourself for the acts of others.(following comments are not directed twards lawful and respectful atv users.)
I have not heard an honest to goodness elk bugle in this area in probably 5 years. The roads and trails are plagued with exhaust belching rubber legged quadrapeds that are even too lazy to shut off the motor before attempting a bugle or cow calling. Elk here have become almost silent. For example last year sitting in wait on a well used game trail two cows with calves passed by me at 10 yards, as they moved down wind of my position they immediately reversed coarse and returned the same way they had come. No alarm bark just a silent communication.
I want to hear some elk vocalization!!!! it just isnt elk hunting without it.

Rogue

Dave, is Back Country Hunters a regional organization or nation wide? We have a serious problem here in the Ozarks, they have become the playground for all kinds of ORV’s from 4-wheelers to cage buggies. The problems you fellas talk about with the elk are the same ones I encounter with turkeys. Nothing is more frustrating than hiking back in an hour or so only to be greeted with the growl of a fourwheeler come gobblin time.

If there’s not anything in Arkansas, can we start a chapter here?

Thanks

Johnny

This thread reminded me…I had intended to join Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, but I had some issues arise, and my thoughts went elsewhere. I live in Michigan, in an area that is almost exclusively private land. One square mile blocks, and people STILL drive to hunting blinds with their trucks or ATVS! I watched the video on that site. I was fully expecting the elk hunter to shoot the guy on the ATV! I would’ve been tempted.

Edit: I just re-read my post, and it’s written as though I’m under the impression BH&A would assist with private land. That’s not what I meant. I was just giving another example of how lazy many hunters have become.

In Alabama, the NFS LEO’s do a good job of keeping the idiots
out of the woods. For my part, I’m giving Nelson’s The Island Within and certain of Dave’s books to some of my huntng friends this Christmas. I can’t think of a better way to spread the word and ensure a growing number of like thinkers.

J2 — You can check out national BHA at http://www.backcountryhunters.org We have several active state chapters, most in the West but several small ones coming along in the East as well. If you like what the group does, please join. Study our “platforms” and if you want to start an AR chapter I”m sure it would be most welcome. You’ll have to check with the national folks on the details. I resigned the national board a couple of years ago in order to devote more time to co-chairing the CO chapter, presently the largest and most active. This is a conservation group. We work to protect roadless areas, get more wilderness when it has important wildlife and water values, stop the ORV/ATV/dirt bike ruination of hunting, and other issues related to preserving hunting and fishing opportunities on public lands. Thanks for your interest. dave

David Petersen wrote: We have several active state chapters, most in the West but several small ones coming along in the East as well.

I could have sworn I saw, somewhere on the site, a list of all the state chapters, but I can’t find them for the life of me! I know there’s not a Michigan chapter, unless one was added recently. I was still interested in seeing the list though. Is it still there…somewhere?

David Petersen wrote: I resigned the national board a couple of years ago in order to devote more time to co-chairing the CO chapter, presently the largest and most active. This is a conservation group.

That would explain why your website and the CO chapter have the same logo, which I might add, is seriously the coolest logo I’ve ever seen. Did you design it?

I grew up hunting and fishing roadless and non-motorized areas. Around 1980 or so my brother and I had January archery mule deer tags in NM. We start walking around 4:00 am behind a gate on an old closed road to reach the edge of a sagebrush flat a couple miles in we knew the deer would be feeding in. An hour or so into the walk we hear motors and the slobs blew by us on their dirt bikes w/ their bows strapped on back. Being kids we both instinctively picked up rocks and threw them hard, luckily we missed. that experience and others since have made me very passionate about protecting the roadless areas we have. When I heard about Backcountry Hunters and Anglers I knew this was an organization that I belonged in. This small group is already making waves and being heard by federal and state agencies and taken seriously. BHA is getting things done to protect our hunting and fishing heritage by preserving the backcountry which is essential for not only the experience of the hunt but critical for the fish and wildlife.
This year elk hunting I found and documented two different illegal ATV trails and reported them. One goes across a small river and up a hillside in plain view of a major road. the other took about a mile of chainsaw work to clear the trail of downfall by the culprits. These guys have no fear of getting caught. The Forest Service and BLM is shorthanded on law enforcement. In my opinion if the penalties for the few that are caught were way stiffer things would change. Say, make them pay for every blade of grass they smash or confiscate the machines. Well, enough ranting. I would say you can’t go wrong by supporting Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

You can definately tell rifle season opened today here in Wyoming. Granted I’m getting my gear around to head afield tomorrow after work (while the longbow hangs in the rack, I still gotta eat) to hunt with my smoke pole (Wyoming doesn’t have a muzzle loader season and I’d like to get the the .54 Hawkins the same amount of exercise my longbow was awarded). Anyway, over the last few days not matter which gas station, grocery store, or unfortunately liquor store (especially at Wal-Mart:twisted:, don’t get me started on that) you passed, it was a guarentee to see at least 1 if on more camper or pickup with ATV in tow. It is really disheartening for me too see the state of the American “sportsman”, thank you Outhouse Channel.
I don’t care if all you do is stay on the road, ATV’s are not hunting equipment. I take my truck (it’s an ’09 by the way) to any place the road goes thats what I bought it for, if I didn’t want to take it there I’d have bought a Subaru Outback like %75 of Greenies. So, “I don’t want to hurt my truck” is a lame EXCUSE.
For that reason I’m headed as deep as the quads god gave me (BHA member) will take me in the next couple days. Hopefully I’ll have shallow boot prints on the way in and deep ones on the way out.

SDMF

SDMFer wrote: I don’t care if all you do is stay on the road, ATV’s are not hunting equipment. I take my truck (it’s an ’09 by the way) to any place the road goes thats what I bought it for, if I didn’t want to take it there I’d have bought a Subaru Outback like %75 of Greenies. So, “I don’t want to hurt my truck” is a lame EXCUSE.

Regarding your above comment about using your truck “any place the road goes,” what’s the difference between that and a guy who parks his truck and then takes a Polaris down those same roads where you drive your truck? If you’re both legally using your vehicles, what’s the issue? If as you say, the guy with the ATV is “stay[ing] on the road,” his ATV is no more a piece of hunting equipment than your truck.

I’m curious about this because where I live ATV abuse isn’t really an issue. While I fully understand disdain for those breaking the law (ATV users or otherwise), I suppose I never understood blanket outrage for a piece of equipment or entire user group on account of a segment of that user group violating the law. I grew up in an urban area plagued with gangs and gun violence, but I didn’t grow up hate guns or gun owners in general.

I agree with the farm implement label. I have friends who own hunting land and ATVs, and that’s exactly how we use them—tilling ground, removing fallen trees etc. We also use them to extract the occasional dead deer, but honestly, I can’t understand how anyone could hunt from one. Do these guys actually even shoot anything, because deer and turkeys around here run like heck when they hear or see one coming?

Of course our personal experiences will always be different due to different hunting locations, regional culture, terrain, etc. Yet we see a resounding similarity of bad ATV experiences here, and bottom line for me is very personal: In recent years and getting worse, hordes of “hunters” on ATVs have ruined more hunts for me and friends than I can count. Many or most of my favorite walk-in hunting spots are now not worth visiting. You can’t get your full-sized vehicle 30 miles off the road on a narrow trail up a mountainside or down into the black hole. That’s the difference. ATVs and dirt bikes go where no motors should because they can. ATVs and dirt bikes rip across delicate wetlands and other habitat and tear it up because they can and to some it’s “fun.” All it takes is the press of a thumb. Not all ATV riders fit the cliche of “fat and lazy.” But keep riding rather than walking, and they will be! “Use the ‘quads’ God gave us!” One man’s right to swing his arms ends just short of where the next man’s face begins. These guys don’t get it. It’s not just abuse, but overuse as well. Who ever determined that our last wildest best places for democratic public lands backcountry hunting in America are suitable playgrounds for motorized vehicles? Like any number of things that can be OK when done in moderation, in appropriate places, ATVs are way out of control. Like an award-winning CO game warden puts it (in public): “ATVs pose the greatest threat to hunting in America today. If we don’t get them under control soon, it’s the end of hunting as we know it.” This is not bias or elitism, it’s unfortunate fact. I’ve lost thousands of acres of prime hunting grounds to these damn machines. They just don’t belong on public lands. Ya just gotta see (and hear and smell) it to believe it! Dave

Hiram,

Believe me, we totally agree with regard to illegal ATV use. If someone is illegally taking their ATV (or truck for that matter) somewhere it shouldn’t be, they should lose that particular piece of equipment. My question was regarding the post about the difference between someone legally driving their truck somewhere versus someone else using an ATV to go to that same location. It seems like a “six of one, half-dozen of the other” sort of thing to me.

If someone is using an ATV illegally (or, again, a truck), then that’s one issue. But if they are using them within the law, then to me, that’s an entirely different discussion.

Jason, believe me we appreciate law-abiding motorized users. Just like every time I come alongside a Harley rider who actually has mufflers on his bike, I thank him! But I must repeat that the ATV (and in places, increasingly, dirt bike) problem is not just abuse, but also and mostly “authorized” overuse. For a couple of decades now the agencies totally ignored this growing threat, having no experience with it. The result is that the very rich ORV industry and many very dedicated users (most of the straight-arrows, but still in the millions and growing faster than cancer cells) pushed and pushed for more and more until now it’s entirely out of control and the FS itself rates ORV “use” as a top threat to public lands. And what threatens public lands threatens habitat and wildlife, thus hunting. You are viewing this, quite reasonable, from a personal-experience point of view. Many others of us have had to view it in the big picture. They just never quit coming. And coming. So far as ATVs vs. full-sized vehicles (and I think I noted this someplace here before but what the heck) — an elk researcher who is studying road, trail and motorized impacts on elk movements during hunting season coined the term “vehicle spawning.” That is, in older times one or two vehicles would come in and set up a camp. Today those same trucks are pulling ATV trailers and so suddenly you have 4 or a dozen. Used to be we figured ways to do drop-offs and get by with fewer vehicles. The convenience of ATVs puts far more motors out there. Used to be, with far fewer vehicles out there, we could walk out of camp and hunt with no need to drive. Thanks to a gross overreliance on ATVs, that’s no more the case. Thank God for wilderness! Yet, should the majority of hunters and other backcountry users be banished without a whimper to only wilderness, because we’ve allowed a minority of motorized users to take over the rest? We see your point of view and understand. We hope you can likewise see ours. This is a motorized world and even in wilderness we can’t escape airplanes. We go hunting, many of us, in large part to escape the sounds and smells of motors and the huge crowds they bring. Without demonizing anyone, we still maintain — motors don’t belong in the backcountry! Thanks for listening, dave

I’ve felt tempted to jump in on this thread, but Dave has it pretty well covered. All can add is that it isn’t just in the west–I’ve had parallel experiences here in the Allegheny National Forest (Pennsylvania). The spirit of the backcountry is the spirit of the hunt.
If we truly want to protect either, we have to protect both. BHA is working hard on this issue and forging alliances with other concerned groups. If you care about hunting, support BHA.

Dave, Hiram et al,

Thanks for the replies. Since ATV abuse (illegal or otherwise) isn’t a problem where I hunt, it isn’t an issue with which I’m familiar. One of the nice things about forums such as these is that they allow people to gain perspective on things outside their experience.

Hey! Other websites could learn a thing or three from how you guys are handling this potentially divisive topic! Mutual respect, tolerance of other views and experiences, focus on topic not insulting one another. I love this place! J — where do you hunt? A lot of us would like to join you there to get away from the motorized crowds. You are a lucky chap! Snuffy

Dave has been debating this issue with a great degree of self control. And I applaud him. I will say that here in Minnesota we are having the very same issues with ATV abuse, Unfortunately our DNR is supporting it. You see we have 2 of the largest manufactures here in our state and they have spent there money well. Anyone that agrees with Dave should definitely join Back country Hunters and Anglers it is a solid bunch.

ATVs do suck indeed, but I think the sheer NUMBERS of bowhunters in the Colorado woods have damaged far more hunts. All I have are anecdotes but they’re disturbing nonetheless: Last I checked, there were 13 times as many elk tags issued in Colorado than in Wyoming. This year I packed 6 miles into a northern Colorado wilderness area; on the first morning, I was literally aiming at a bull when he suddenly bolted away. Ten seconds later here came two clueless compounders on a mission, loaded down with gadgets. Over the next several days I ran into no fewer than 15 bowhunters, including a couple of trads (one a CBA area rep!) who carved out a new permanent spur trail with their 9 — yes 9 — horses. My point: even in some ATV-less areas, we have too many of us to have the solitude we crave. The archery industry has made it so easy for any clown to shoot a machine (I defy anyone to call it a “compound bow”) that you don’t even have to touch the string to shoot it! Colorado is overrun more by bowhunters than ATVs.

J.Wesbrock wrote: One of the nice things about forums such as these is that they allow people to gain perspective on things outside their experience.

That is SO true! Excellent point.

Case in point:

LEskew wrote: ATVs do suck indeed, but I think the sheer NUMBERS of bowhunters in the Colorado woods have damaged far more hunts. All I have are anecdotes but they’re disturbing nonetheless: Last I checked, there were 13 times as many elk tags issued in Colorado than in Wyoming. This year I packed 6 miles into a northern Colorado wilderness area; on the first morning, I was literally aiming at a bull when he suddenly bolted away. Ten seconds later here came two clueless compounders on a mission, loaded down with gadgets. Over the next several days I ran into no fewer than 15 bowhunters, including a couple of trads (one a CBA area rep!) who carved out a new permanent spur trail with their 9 — yes 9 — horses.

I would have NEVER guessed you’d see bowhunters like that while out hunting in wilderness areas.

Eskew, as in Lane? Must be, as who would dare to pretend to be you? 😀 And of course you are right. Aside from the long-distance noise and long-lasting habitat damage, what ATVs do to harm hunting is deliver too many people, too easily, into what used to be prime backcountry wildlife habitat and happy boot-power hunting grounds. We can add bush planes to that problem in places. But like it or not and I don’t expect that many of us like it, hunting has become Big Industry, as Lane points out. In that light a second big bad hit to hunting is the GPS and all the digital maps and info that now come with them. Now anyone can go anywhere in the backcountry with no navigation skills, no experience and thus no fear of getting lost so long as the batteries don’t run out. (Before GPS, the average hunter never got more than a half-mile away from the road.) That of course is a very mixede blessing but definitely adds to backcountry crowding that didn’t previously exist. And horses — there’s an outfitter for about every square mile around here it seems. Just too many hunters with increased access to former backcountry, from a combo of causes. Yet we all get too easily co-opted to support the industry-inspired call that “Hunting is dying! We need to recruit more new hunters!” Sure we do, if we have something sell to them! Some well-intended folks are even taking their kids to game farms to execute captive animals for their “first blood” because they have no better way or place at hand to “intruduce kids to hunting.” But that ain’t hunting. If you know of a place with lots of game and not enough hunters and no ATVs — a place that “needs more hunters,” please let me know so I can move there! Here on Colorado’s public lands we are overrun with hunters and because muzzle-loading season is piled on to of archer, the easy season is quickly becoming more crowded than rifle seasons. Part of the reason is, as Lane states: it’s a business. The other part is that we’re losing habitat like crazy, both private and public lands that were uncrowded and still wild enough to be a huge adventure just half a century ago, when I was a kid. And we, the “common” hunters, not only don’t get nearly involved enough in stopping this trend, but are all too easily suckered into helping the enemies. WE DON’T NEED MORE HUNTERS. WE NEED MORE BETTER HUNTERS! Darn Lane, you knew this would happen — set me off! — didn’t you old friend? Anon

David Petersen wrote: WE DON’T NEED MORE HUNTERS. WE NEED MORE BETTER HUNTERS!

I can really relate to that! I worked at a rather large mom & pop sporting goods (read: hunting/fishing only) for 9 years, and I would get so irritated at some of the unbelievably irresponsible people who would leave there, “ready” to shoot deer. They would buy bows the day before bow season starts, and hunt the next day. Buy guns, I would bore sight it, and that was “good enough for them”..they’d hunt the next day. I could go on, and on.

I think you guys will really appreciate this one: I went elk hunting in Oregon with my dad, the year I graduated from HS. We went with his friend, and were going to meet his relatives out there, with whom we’d hunt. O-M-G! The one guy was bragging that the first elk he ever shot was a “herd shot”. Yeah…he just flung an arrow into the herd of elk and just happened to mortally wound one. I was young and a guess, so I kept my mouth shut the whole time I was there.

1st, Dave, I absolutely loved A Man Made of Elk. I already know it will be an annual preseason read, just like “A Sand County Almanac”. I would highly recommend anybody else on this thread (or forum for that matter) to pick up a copy.

2nd, LEskew, SHHH. I’m already unhappy about Field and Stream calling attention to the wilderness areas I hunt in southern Wyoming. I don’t want to have the same problem you ran into. So, call me selfish if you want, but Colorado has the largest elk herd in the country so everybody should hunt Colorado.

3rd, Dave do you know if there is a way to get a print of the cover art from “A Man Made of Elk”, I’ve checked T.A.D.’s website and can’t find any information about the work.

Fist-pump and hearty hugs, Dave! I’m one of those stealth readers, but your percipient notes lured me into the open. After converting to a recurve 50 years after you, I’m crankier because I have to get a lot closer to my prey than the 70-yard compound machine shooters that FLOOD through Colorado in September. I have nothing against them personally, except that there are too many of all of us at one time (archers outnumber smokepolers 5 to 1), thanks to State mismanagement. Industry is more than happy to fill the bottomless pit of licenses with the matching equipment, and I can’t fault it for making money — except that now it’s so easy to shoot the modern bows (albeit not accurately) that the only mystery to using them is what gadgets need adjusting. It’s like the national shift from horses (and legs) to ATVs: with an ATV, there’s little to nurture or train or learn, no mystery except for checking tire pressure. . . . Each technology upgrade erodes the mystique of hunting a little more — puts more space between us and the raw beauty that initially attracted us.

Agreed: We need more better hunters, the kind who still value the mystery and raw beauty. The rest can kiss the backside of the quads God gave me.

SDMFer — The cover painting for Man Made of Elk is an original oil by Thomas Aquinas Daly, which he painted expressly for that purpose after reading the draft manuscript. Quite an honor to have my favorite living painter do a “commission” work, for free to boot. It quickly sold to a collector for $7,000 and there are no prints, so you’d have to tear the cover off a book, cut out the lower portion with the title etc. and frame it. Tom came out and hunted with me one year, as you know from the book. That’s the second book he’s provided a cover for. The first is Writing Naturally and I have the original watercolor, most valuable and prized thing I own. Anyone who wants to see more of Daly, go to thomasaquinasdaly.com. He’s always been a landscape painter but recently has turned to wildlife, a couple of which have graced the covers of TBM in the past couple of years, and one of which will cover my revised and expanded Racks, if I ever get around to doing it. Thanks for your kind words, dave

Hunted the opener rifle season in Salmon Idaho last month. Bulls were bugling like mad. My partner and I hiked in about 2 miles on CLOSED TO MOTOR VEHICLES logging road to find a honey hole. Problem was the Camp of Kalifornians down the canyon could not resist driving their ATVs up the closed road. End result, the elk moved out. Tried to inform these guys that the sign that says road closed to ATVs means that the road is closed to ATVs. I could not make a dent. I called the Forest Service Ranger for the Salmon District several times and he does not return phone calls. I did speak to a Fish Cop and he was going to look into it. I am beginning to lose interest in big game hunting. For a guy with limited time to spend in the field it is hard to compete with ATVs and the slobs upon them ruining your hunt. I have an 11 year old daughter that will be eligible to hunt big game next year. I am beginning to have reservations about exposing her to these idiots. I might just have to get back into the horse thing or stick with small game. There was a thread on here a while back about the decline of small game hunters in the US. I believe it may be due to the fact that you actually have to walk and put some effort forth to bag a limit of birds. Not so with other types of so called hunting

4 wheelers have to be the same scourge to hunting ,,, as jet skis are to fishing. bank,or wade fishing anyway. There is a place for most everything, but atv, should be w/ atvs. Not with folks using their legs to power themselves.
This problem in hunting is new to me, as I am new to hunting.
But jam boxes , loud yelling people,, jet skis ,, Im sorry but in my opinion, leave this crap at home. Or go where a bunch of other loud people are. We go to a place in Uvalde on the Nueces , and every year it gets louder. If you go “to get away from it all” stinkin ,get away from it all.

If the sounds of nature dont suit you, stay at home.

[quote=Steve J]4 wheelers have to be the same scourge to hunting ,,, as jet skis are to fishing. bank,or wade fishing anyway. There is a place for most everything, but atv, should be w/ atvs. Not with folks using their legs to power themselves.
This problem in hunting is new to me, as I am new to hunting.
But jam boxes , loud yelling people,, jet skis ,, Im sorry but in my opinion, leave this crap at home. Or go where a bunch of other loud people are. We go to a place in Uvalde on the Nueces , and every year it gets louder. If you go “to get away from it all” stinkin ,get away from it all.

If the sounds of nature dont suit you, stay at home.[/quote

The sounds of nature do include ,, to me anyway a quitely picked 6 string or french harp:lol:]