Sweet! Looks cold up there!

When you called and told me about everything this afternoon the most amazing part to me was when you stated that the broadheads had no visable sign of damage. Not even a nick on either edge.

Congrats brother!!!

Troy

Jp,

That’s a great story. It would have been really interesting to know what that arrow on the 2nd doe hit that made her bleed so much without expiring.

I had a similar result with my Tuffhead, after going through a bear’s scapula and sticking in the offside rib, it is still sharp, no nicks or bent tip, like you say just needs a stropping to be hunt ready again. They are impressive.

That snow makes me jealous! I miss the winters.

preston

Sounds like that second doe was a one-lung hit. I’ve seen several animals survive one lung hits for a very long time, and some even recover fully. My brother shot a oryx in Namibia (with a rifle) that had a .58 caliber mini-ball (apparently from a muzzle-loader) in one lung. The slug had been there for a long, long time. The lung was collapsed and the slug was totally walled off by tissue but the oryx was getting along just fine.

Even after I’ve waited a long time before following up I make it a point to always stalk every downed animal. When I first locate them I carefully check them out through the binoculars to see if I can detect any sign of life. It sometimes provides a chance for a second, finishing shot, if needed.

Unfortunately, unless the animal is recover it’s impossible to know for sure what happened.

Ed

Congratulations Jans 😀

Congrats JP !

You seem to have endured quite some action as well as the elements .

Awesome arrow too.

This is most interesting, as it touches on both of the two basic opposing arguments on arrow lethality: I am a born-again supporter of the Ashby Study, which I (right or wrong) reduce to “maximum lethality is attained by an arrow system that provides consistent pass-throughs even with heavy bone hits, and does maximum damage when passing through,” … as opposed to the “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it” adherence to “perfect arrow flight and perfect arrow placement.” Obviously, the logical vote goes with the Ashby view, since “perfect” anything is most often just a hope, with SO many unknowns working against it. And yet of course we need and should strive to have it ALL: perfect arrows and perfect placement.

So here, you have one deer hit near-perfectly with a seemingly perfect arrow setup, yet the wounded animal nonetheless bounced around for a surprisingly long while before dying. And then a second pass-through with what I too consider the most lethal broadhead available today … and yet no recovery! Perhaps Dr. Ed can hypothesize why the first seemingly perfect shot with a perfect arrow still let the deer run for a while (if not unconscionably long) when in similar circumstances I have dropped elk practically in their tracks (I am thinking of down and dead on three elk at 25, 12 and 15 yards in recent years, and FAR tougher animals). Lesson here seems to be “We must leave no possibility unexplored to assure a fast humane kill … and then just hope for the best.” On the second deer it may have been a combo of a longish shot and less than perfect shot/entry angle? In a perfect word, the best shot angle is most always broadside, though holding out for such precision is, I understand, unreasonable in the real world.

Not a speck of criticism here, I trust you understand … just the usual after-the-fact curiosity and speculation on why things happen as they do and what we can do to exert more control in the future, if anything. Life, and death, are rarely perfect.

Congrats Jan’s…great job!

Dave I agree with Ed. It sounds like a one lung hit to me as well. I think the difference is you shoot your elk from the ground. I maybe wrong but it looks like Jans was elevated in a stand. I think if you took the same shot level with the deer then the deer would have died like your elk. That’s my two cents.

Congrats again Jans!

I, too, think shots from ground level are more effective than shots from elevated positions. I have always felt that, though blood flowing from a low entry or exit wound leaves a good blood trail, bleeding that is retained within the thorax helps promote lung collapse.

That notwithstanding, there are so many possible influencing factors that could result in a time difference to collapse. One is the degree of flight response elicited. When heavier bone is hit there is a heavier ‘felt impact’, which usually results in an elevated flight response and longer time to collapse. The heavy bone hit is also a relative thing. An arrow impacting a heavy bone on a 125 pound doe is, relatively, a much heavier ‘felt impact’ than is the same arrow hitting a heavy bone on an elk. A good example of this is that most animals showing no reaction, beyond a minor ‘flinch’. to a pass-through hit generally occurs only on shots that hit very little bone. (This is also an advantage of the higher Mechanical Advantage broadheads; they transfer less force to a bone in order to breach the bone, resulting in a lower ‘felt impact’.)

Of course things like level of broadhead sharpness is a factor, as is the specifics of the organs and vessels hit, and the severity of the wound inflicted to each. The physiologic and psychological state of the animal immediately prior to the time of the hit is, no doubt, also a large factor in collapse time.

Ed

All quite likely possibilities. The most important thing, IMHO, is that we seriously consider and openly discuss these bloody details, both successes and failures, thus learn from both going forward.

“Deer spear” … I like that! 😀

[quote=jpcarlson] I find this Trad hunting to be a wonderful slippery slope and find myself itching to keep simplifying my equipment for the field. I would love to get to the point of making a selfbow, arrows, and flint heads. I feel the hunt would take on even greater meaning. I just love the darn curves of a recurve though:) I guess I will just have to try them all. The older I become, the more the manner in which I hunt and the equipment I use plays the largest role in the experience I have.

Jans[/quote)

JP

Congratulations on your first traditional kill. and thanks for reporting your experiences with the TuffHead.

I would encourage you to pursue your desire to build a self bow.Killing game with a bow you made yourself is a real thrill and takes you another step into the traditional archery world. I am not so sure I would encourage you to use flint points……….that is bad for the broad head business:D:D

Again congratulations !!

Back from a week’s travel, but adding my $.02 of congrats!

Always sucks to loose a critter, but only YOU can resolve your own feelings that all was done. Nobody else’s opinions matter.

Congrats! Just being OUT in those conditions can be a trial!

For me , the pic of the exit wound tells it all . That is amazing . Your arrows are truly super tough. I’m hoping to be able to afford the TUFFHEAD before next season .

JP , you are not alone in the WHEELS vs TRAD community . I started trad and didn’t know there was anything else. Then Dad bought a compound and I was intrigued. Shortly he gave me the wheel bow and bought himself another . I could shoot that thing like a RIFLE . Bust Dads nocks at 20 yards at will . But !!! ,,, to carry that ungodly thing hunting was like taking a scoop shovel full of hog s#$%t to the woods .

I traded the c’pound for a Damon Howattt Hunter in 1981 and things haven’t been the same since .

Congrats on your trad success and CARRY ON FELLER .

AS for your earlier post about your Dad and your youth, I remember reading something in my own journey that someone penned, “It’s amazing to me how much my Father learned between my own age of 17 and 25! ” I think that pretty much sums up life between those ages….

Those pics remind me of my 1st 2 single bevel kills. I butcher my own deer and on both, I commented to a friend that there was as much “blood shot” on my single bevel kills as with a 7mm ballistic tip bullet out of my 7×57 hand loads!

Geeze, Jans, that exit wound looks like a hand grenade went off in it! I can’t believe it made it as far as it did and didn’t just drop like a brick. Pretty impressive entry wound as well.

David Petersen wrote: … that exit wound looks like a hand grenade went off in it!

… ans the last paragraph on the clotting cascade article explains why.

Broadhead Sharpness and the Clotting Cascade

The clotting cascade is the physiologic process the body uses to seal off a bleeding blood vessel. When a blood vessel is cut the damaged cells lining the inner wall of the blood vessel release a protein called prothrombin. Prothrombin reacts with the blood plasma to form thrombin. Thrombin acts as a catalyst to convert fibrinogen into fibrin. The fibrin attaches to the ragged tissue tags at the cut edge of the blood vessel to form a clot, sealing off the vessel.

What’s important to recognize is that the type of edge finish on your broadhead has an effect on the clotting cascade. When you use the thinnest, smoothest, sharpest edge finish fewer of the cells lining the blood vessel’s inner wall are damaged. This means less porthrombin is released. At the other end of the cascade this means less fibrin is produced; but there’s more. That thinnest, smoothest, sharpest edge also results in fewer tissue tags at the cut end of the blood vessel. That means there are now fewer tissue tags for the reduced amount of fibrin to attach to. The net result is a cut that bleeds both more freely and for a longer period of time, and that’s exactly what we want.

It is noteworthy that single-bevel broadheads have a thinner edge than double-bevel broadheads. A single-bevel broadhead sharpened at a 25 degree angle, the standard sharpening angle on virtually every single-bevel broadhead available, has a total edge angle of 25 degrees. Most all double-bevel broadhead are sharpened at a 25 degree angle on each side of the edge, resulting in a total edge angle of 50 degrees.

At equal levels of edge smoothness and sharpness the significantly thinner edge of the single-bevel broadhead results in less damage to the cells lining the walls of the blood vessels and fewer tissue tags, resulting in freer and longer lasting hemorrhaging from each vessel severed. When compared to a double-bevel broadhead of matching profile and edge finish there is a consistently observable increase in the level of bleeding into the soft tissues from a single-bevel broadhead wound.

Not to warp the topic, Jans, but man those ribs look good! I recall tossing whitetail ribs on a charcoal grill and loving them, way back when I lived where I could hunt whitetails. Not so for mule deer or esp. elk.

Jan’s

It’s been some years (hope to change that soon) but as I remember trim some of the fat–leave some of the flank–no marinade as we liked the greasy taste of the wild meat over the coals—most important–do not over cook–rare is best–a little olive oil never hurts—enjoy.:D Eat with your hands and a sharp knife–if it’s snowing all the better, huddle close to the fire.

Mike

Sounds like a great hunt Jans!

Congrats Feller ,,,,,Very admirable . Excellent photos and story . Beautiful bow too.

jpcarlson wrote: … She ran back down the way she came and stood looking back and trying to figure out what had stung her …

One of the many reasons to use a setup that gives a high percentage of pass-through hits.

Sounds like a great day afield!

Ed

That’s yet another good point, Ed, that I had overlooked all these years. Most experienced bowhunters have had deer, and in my case elk, just jump, maybe run a few steps, then return to eating or what they were doing for a few seconds before collapsing dead. Now that I think of it, all such instances I’ve experienced have been pass-throughs. Perhaps they are aware of the weight of an arrow still in them and panic. Or perhaps a pass-through, which indicates a good arrow setup and very sharp head, is painless, which sure seems the case given the evidence. Another great reason to do all we can to design an arrow and learn to sharpen broadheads so that we can maximize the percentage of pass-through shots. We could say a 65# bow with 700 grain arrow and EFOC is “overkill” for a little whitetail doe. But what is “overkill” when it puts ’em on the ground in sight!!! Sure we can get by with less for most deer situations, which I’ve owned up to before. But why risk it? Better to have an “overkilled” animal on the ground in front of you than an exception to the “get by with less” optimism long gone and never found. Another glory of heavy arrows, the right sharp head and EFOC is that you don’t need 65# to get the same results. Congrats, Jans!

I agree Mr.Dave . Brings to mind what a young man in my electrical training class told . His friend , shooting a wheeled device , light arrow and a late model expandable head shot a really big buck right behind the shoulder . The arrow struck the deer and fell to the ground after the first jump. Unbroken and unreliable .

Again , congrats to Mr. Carlson

JANS

Congratulations …..great way to finish up the season.

Thanks for the report and kind words about the TuffHead

Jans

I noticed that the last deer you killed there was snow on the ground also…..Does the snow ever melt in South Dakota…LOL:D:D

Jans, what kind of footing set up are you using?

“In bowhunting there’s no such thing as overkill”. – Ed

Congratulations on your first trad harvest. I am waiting to take my first trad deer also. I had the compound bow for about 5 years and then past that on to my adult son. Now just my recurve, forever.