Does the single bevel blade (making an “S” shaped cut) solve this problem?

From my experience, and let me just say i am far from an expert, If you hit the animal right you should have no problem w blood trails. When I used to shoot a compound I used multi blade heads (actually Muzzy 4blade) and they worked great. But my compound was creating a larger amount of energy transfer due to the compounds high FPS. When i went to a recurve I saw that they just are not creating the fps needed to drive the arrow deep. Again, in my opinion. Ive used 2 blade broadheads for years. Magnus stinger 125gr and I love em. Keep em real sharp, make your shots count, and keep the distances 25yds and under.

D

I have to agree with Dave. I’ve used Magnus II 2 Blades for years and never a problem with blood trails. I think it’s all about sharp blades and shot placement that count.

A couple years ago, I shot a doe with a Wensel at about 20 or 22 yards, complete pass-through (including a center-punched rib on exit), quartering away, liver and one lung, and only found about 3 drops of blood on the whole trail. However, I was trailing in the dark with a big mag lite, so I may have missed most of the blood. I don’t know. I did find her fairly easily (with a bit of luck). Was it a fluke that she didn’t bleed a whole lot externally? I don’t know. Maybe that’s how liver shots work. I shot another doe once with a 2 blade, not a real good shot, but still made a fairly quick recovery. Not a whole lot of blood on that one, either…maybe I just have bad luck with blood trails. If the shot is good, and the head is sharp, it should do the trick for you.

Michael

There are numerous factors that affect the quality of a blood trial: where it was hit, the presence of an exit wound (these two are most important), the species of game, the behavior of the animal, the nature of the cover and terrain… My honest opinion (and it’s nothing more than that) is that the number of blades on the head doesn’t make that much difference. Blood trails aren’t a factor in my own choice of broadheads. Don

i shoot woodsman heads also i keep them so sharp that i would bet they are sharper than the average raser,but it is my opinion that a broadhead does not need to be sharp as long as it can be forced to cut flesh it is sharp enough,look at stone heads witch were used to great effect by the true owners of america they were not sharp enough to shave.

I agree with Don 100%…place’em right, keep’em sharp and no blood trail issues.

Shot a doe a little far back (liver) had a great blood trail but she did a circle on me and I had to find her the next morning. Used a old Bear two blade no bleeder. Keep them sharp and watch the placement and you should recover your animal.
Bill

I agree with most keep’em sharp and put’em where it counts. I’ve never shot multi blades before but I have trailed deer taken with them and I haven’t noticed any difference in the amount of blood on well placed shots.

Given same species and similar situations/animal reactions, all the data I have so far indicates that the degree of blood trail present is dependent on: (1) location of the hit; (2) presence and location of an exit wound and; (3) what tissues, vessels and organns were hit inbetween. So far the data shows no significant difference between single blade and multiblade designs in the average degree of blood trail shown across a series of ‘like hits’.

Ed

Although Ed didn’t mention it, I have seen photos and read detailed descriptions of pigs and deer shot with “Ashby style” arrow setups — heavy, high FoC, single-bevel heads — that produced massive blood trails after “tearing hell out of the insides going through” due to the twist. In once case a guy shot a big pig, the arrow passed through and killed a second pig behind it with almost another pass-through. My own primary experience across the past 25 years and more is with elk and I have to separate blood trails from lethality. The elk’s lungs are so huge that even with a pass-through shot, mid-chest or higher, you aren’t likely to have much blood, since it all pools inside the lungs … gallons will spill out when you field dress ’em. So, as Ed and others above say, shot placement is a major factor in blood trails, at least with elk … shoot low, 2/3 down from top and close behind shoulder, for max lethality and blood. On the other hand, none of my cleanest fastest kills have left much blood … because with good shot placement and a pass-through, they fall dead almost as if rifle shot. So in my experience, if you use the right geat and have good shot placement and get a low lung/heart pass through, blood trails don’t matter because the animal will die in sight. I don’t see how it could be much different with deer, except you don’t need as much horsepower to achieve pass through. Dave

My first bear was taken with 2 blade magnus at 125 grains.that bear went 30yrds and he lasted 10 seconds,that bear was hit perfect.The second bear was a double lung and he went 75 yrds!Although the blood trail can be tough with a bear there is no doubt in my mind that a SHARP 2blade will kill quickly.I shot a spike white tail acouple years back from a tree stand and put the arrow through him from directly above.I hit the lungs as it went through 6 inches to the side of the spine.He ran a hard half circle and was dead on the trail 45 yrds from my tree!I am confident that when i hit the vitals the 2 bladed broadheads work.

I’ve tried 3 blade heads such as the Snuffer and Woodsman over the years with good results. However, I have went back to a 2 blade for good after considering more often than not animals never seem to go very far with a 2 blade hit. They are certainly easier to initially sharpen along with maintaining an edge in the field. Shot location will always be the greatest factor in the quality of a blood trail.

I’ve read the above posts with interest and have some observation:
Sharp blades always create more blood loss as they have the ability to cut blood vessels more efficiently.

Sharp blades will create less resistance as they penetrate.

Well knapped stone blades leave really nasty wounds as the cutting edges are serrated.

Subcutaneous fat can easily plug a wound.

I have no experience of bears (yet) but suggest that the coat may well hold a lot more blood before a trail starts to form than for instance deer, and again pig bristles.

There are so many variables regarding condition of the beast, condition of the surface that blood is deposited upon that I don’t think there are hard and fast rules.

Shot placement is the only thing that will guarantee collecting a beast.

Didn’t know I had that much to say on the subject.
Happy hunting, Mark.

Dr. Ashby,

I am waiting with held breath that others start to realize this. I am very interested for the upcoming season as I have optimized my setup to your recommendations. I doubt the whitetails stand a chance.

Best,
Dan

Probably a horrible way to introduce myself since this is my first post. Blame Dave Peterson for me being here. He spoke highly of this site over others…….so here I am. HIS FAULT. lol

A single blade head is what I shoot and have tried others that work but I saw pros and cons to all heads and I returned to single blade heads for the reasons Dr. Ashby and Dave have expounded on before…..penetration.

Sharpness and arrow placement are the key as others above have correctly indicated but you will see, I will also ADMIT to the fact that I DON’T ALWAYS get perfect placement and it’s the penetratio of the single blade that “saved my keister”!!

Example I embarrassingly post below.

Imagine sitting on a bucket in the brush, three bucks, running a doe charging through the creek bottom and the doe coming to a screeeeeeeeeeeching WHOA 10 feet in front of you…….eyes locked!

All three bucks came charging in a split second later. One slid to a stop behind the doe, one stopped on my right at 6 yards (naturally the big one I was hunting..grr!) and this one FOUR YARDS slightly to my left, fortunately directly where my arrowhead was pointing. I was already locked on the string with my trembling hand!

Forget form, forget anchor, forget …forget forget…..no time to think and think I DID NOT! I simply snap shot the buck in front of my arrow. Arrow contact being WAY left of my “aiming” spot…..I know I never reached full draw or my anchor.:oops:

I literally had to shake the mud off my clothes from the flying hooves throwing it all over on departure.

There on the ground was “most” of my arrow. I could only think “OH NO….:shock:…you big, DUMB..b*&*&*&d!!”

Slowly I stood up looking to the SW in the direction the buck ran. To my amazement he was in the process of going down less than 30 yards away. I dont think 8 seconds had passed!! A few seconds later….he lay still in the morning sunshine.

Blood? oh my…..you tell me. (see photo)

One thing I wish to add that perhaps, and IS IMHO, a consideration is the fact that I REALLY don’t worry about a “blood trail”.

This buck, thankfully, was NOT a normal example of some 50 plus bowkills, yet 90 percent or so of my bowkills GO DOWN IN SIGHT.

Refer back to Mr. Peterson’s “One Perfect Arrow” article of June/July 2005 in TBM. Within it, David is relating the speed that they GO DOWN with the proper arrow and arrow placement…with that all needed penetration, and HIS “deer” are a bunch bigger than MINE!

Yes! We know a good blood trail is “handy” but for me that single blade head and more penetration has SAVED ME on a few “oops” shots, yet I had no problem following a blood trai, if and when I needed.

I NOW shoot heavier arrows than the 525 grain Delta tipped arrow I “semi shot” this buck with but no one is going to convince me that the razor sharp single blade head didn’t save the day on this horrific shot years ago.

Again, my first post so forgive me if I blew it ALL out of proportion. I’m a windy OL Goat that just loves to bowhunt and season is NOT in so YOU have to suffer….or not. 😉

GOD BLESS!

Dan, best of luck, but luck is a relative thing. Sounds like you’ve stacked the odds in your favor … should the hit be less than perfect. (If the hit’s perfect, and the arrow keeps its structural integrity, it won’t matter much what you use, it will work!)

It’s now been over 50 years since my first big game bow kill. I’m absolutely positive that the arrow setup I was using has, several times, made the difference between a recovered animal and a wounded and lost one.

For absolute positive, my wound-loss rate has became significantly lower as my arrow’s setup and penetration potential got better. During my first 25 years of bowhunting (before the first Natal Study) I had a not-so-good wound-loss rate and, like most, attributed it all to “poor hits”. Back then, I even managed to hit and fail to recover as many animals IN JUST ONE YEAR as I have in my entire second 25 years of bowhunting!

My back injury, surgery and some still ongoing secondary problems has delayed the Study Updates from the 2008 testing, but I promise to get to them as soon as I’m able to. There’s some interesting stuff there.

Ed

Good story and good points, Steve. Nobody is saying that only 2-blades and/or only single-bevels are lethal or ethical to shoot at big game, or even that they’re always best for all game in all situations. So it’s amazing how pissy some folks get (not on this site) about defending their own choice and refusing not only to try something new, but even to talk or let others talk about the possibilities. In the very near future this site will be offering a new forum on Arrow Lethality issues based around Dr. Ashby’s work. Here we hope to get lots of “Me and Joe tried this” stories, like yours, so that it’s not just Ashby and me and a few others doing all the preaching. Dr. Ashby very much wants to hear the experiences of others shooting a variety of game. Of course there will be stories of failures as well, and that’s good too as the idea is for us regular hunters to try this stuff in the field and report on how it does, and does not work, and fine-tune our knowledge and gear to the nth degree. Here’s a secret (not): What motivates Ashby and me (and Sharpster for that matter) to stir public interest in trying the gear that has performed best across all the years of the Doc’s careful studies is — empathy and respect for the animals we sling arrows after. We all have suffered the pain of bad shots, long blood trails (with and without blood) and lost animals. Everyone who hunts long enough will experience this. We want to minimize that pain and suffering at least to the extent it can be done by using the most lethal arrows. And surprise! When we reduce wounding, we increase hunter success. All who have experimented with Ashby’s finding, or are wanting to learn, are welcome. Those who prefer to sit back and croak about “I’ve never tried this and never will because I like x-blade heads and they’re the best and all this Ashby stuff is BS” will not feel welcome in this open-minded forum. No bullies allowed. We are here to learn and share, not to argue from ignorance. We had another bear in the yard, twice as big as last week’s. Next week we’re going to WY where they have Real Bears! Cheers, dave

Thanks, Dave.
Hopefully the jist of my story was mostly about how come I stick with single blade for my hunting and my experience of not worrying about a blood trail or lack thereof. Perhaps I’ve been lucky on that.

I hestitate to reply most times simply because of “past experiences” of either wording it incorrectly or someone taking something Ive tried to say….incorrectly, or at least not as I meant it, so know what you mean on that.

A literary giant, I am not.

Ive shot em with about …..hmmm, a dozen heads. Single, three and four blades. For my close range whitetail Ive never had any “fail” but some just didnt do all I had hoped or did so no better than my old single blades.

I’ve yet to try single bevel but a buddy is bringing some Grizzlys over for sharpening trials. I read up on all I could find here since he wants to use em and I’m hoping to give him a hand on that.

I’ll try em out I’m sure, but will admit I’m “one of those” lol, that you mention, and I kinda wonder if “it aint broke, why fix it” when it comes to my old single blade double bevel…so far. I am NOT however so stuck in a rut that I wont try others and why I did so on the other heads mentioned.

One would have to be quite literally blind to not take the extended testing of Dr. Ashby to heart and his and your articles have been a factor in my arrow weight increase some years back.

With an Elk or maybe a Moose,( God Willing!), somewhere on my Bucket List, the single bevel head is indeed up there in my thoughts to try. I would be remiss NOT TO with the info available to me concerning using them on larger boned game.

I’ll try my hand at sharpening them and give ’em a go this fall on whitetail.

My buddy and I will be glad to report findings on what deer we take. I’m hoping for several between the two states I can hunt this fall.

Quite obviously, on whitetail, they should perform well. It will be interesting if I can see an advantage over my double bevel, on that weight of animal instead of the much larger ones involved in the tests.

God Bless

skrsr1,

I, for one, will certainly be interested in your experiences with the single-bevel this fall. Once your animal is on the ground, why not try a couple of hard-bone shots too? Unlike bullets, arrows don’t ruin TOO MUCH meat!

Ed

p.s.: I find your writting/wording just fine.

Sounds like a plan to me, Doc! I was even running through my head the thought of stopping at the local meat locker I know and humbly asking if I could swipe some beef shoulder blades, or at least if they ever HAD one intact instead of sawing up roasts.

And…….oh boy do I have questions for YOU! lol (I habitually go back an read your report searching out answers to things that pop into my mind.)

I tend to “over think” things and a math major so……”look out”.

God Bless for your work!!

Hopefully you are recovering well, Sir.

Steve

Dave,

Thank you for rolling out the welcome mat and putting the BS boot brush next to the door. I am very excited to see the Arrow Lethality Forum get up and running.

Dr. Ashby,

I want to personally thank you for all that you have contributed to us bowhunters, traditional in particular. Your more than scientific approach to arrow penetration has been a Godsend to me among others. I have yet to harvest an animal with a single bevel head / penetration maximized arrow combination but I am very excited to do so and see the merit in your research. I look forward to conversing with you in the future on this topic and being able to share experience and ideas with you directly. You have many ignorant detractors but I feel few if any will be found here when Dave gets his way!

Steve,

Thank you for sharing your field experience it is a great help to us all and who does not like to see some trophy photos to boot…:D

I too am here at the urging of Dave and I am glad he has done so. There are some sites out there that give topics such as these no quarter and it is a downright shame. I have seen some “spit” in the face of Dr. Ashby’s reports and it is utterly confusing that such close-mindedness exists amongst our ranks.

Again, thank you all for what you have provided thus far…let’s keep it going!

Best,
Dan

Steve, if you do get some intact shoulders from the butcher for some testing you can expect to see some evidence of bone splits with the single bevels (and that’s worthwhile to see), but the splits seen will not be anywhere near the frequency or degree that you will see in fresh bone. How ‘fresh’ the bone is does affect the results.

I can’t stress strongly enough that, despite years of trying everything I could think of, I have not found ANY alternative testing medium that gives results that accurately correlate with either the results from actual bow-kills or the test shots into freshly downed animals. (I keep seperate databases for bow kills and test shots, which makes a nice cross reference to be certain that the test data correlates with actual kills data.)

Post mortem tissue changes have enough effect on results that a destinct and consistent difference in average results can be seen between those shots and both the ‘actual kill’ and ‘test shot’ database results. I use a “30 minute rule” for the collection of test shot data; all shots must be taken within 30 minutes of animal collapse. More time than that, especially in cold weather, and the results become less consistent with the ‘actual kills’ data.

Shoot those shoulders from the butcher shop and note the results, and then realize that you WILL SEE FAR MORE DRAMATIC RESULTS in a ‘real life’ situation.

Ed

p.s.: I’m heading off in a few minutes for some medical appointments and will be out of touch for (at least) several days.

Dr. Ashby,

I wish you the best with your upcoming doctors visits and a full, speedy recovery from what ails you. We look forward to having you back.

Best,
Dan

David,

Nice to see you on this site too! I got your email but those pictures of the doe with crumpled Snuffer did not come through. Anyway, I think I like these much better! All I can say is WOW! Now thats penetration unlike I have ever seen on a deer before. Do ya think a big three-blade would have performed like that on any of those shots? I highly doubt it! What poundage were the bows and what range was the deer shot at? Thanks for the pics they are a real eye opener!

Best,
Dan

Wow! I have been away too long!.. Great to see so many old friends posting here. Thanks to Dave Petersen for the well deserved smack in the head telling me to get my butt back over here.

Looks like the subject has been covered pretty thoroughly already but, I’ll throw my 2 cents in… First, the phrase “2 blade slit” gets my blood boiling. You’ll only hear those words from people who either have never hunted with a quality 2 blade head, or those who don’t understand and fully appreciate how critical the level of broadhead sharpness is in influencing the amount of blood left on the ground.

Without even addressing the single bevels clear advantage, given that all other aspects of the shot are equal, the best bloodtrail will always be left by the sharpest broadhead. Not the biggest one or the one with the most blades. As stated, shot placement, complete pass through penetration, and a blazing sharp broadhead = meat on the table. Considering those critical factors before choosing a broadhead is a wise move. You’ll often hear “I’m only shooting whitetails so penetration and Dr. Ashby’s research doesn’t apply”. Really??? Do any of us whitetail hunters know in advance that we’re going to get a ground level, perfectly broadside shot? Do we know in advance that we’re certainly not going to hit any heavy bones? Many of us hunt from treestands and it’s a heck of a lot harder to even get an exit hole when shooting through a deer from the top down, and achieving a complete pass through is nearly impossible. How about quartering shots… is penetration an issue here? Clearly it is. Ed’s research and reports apply to all bowhunters not matter what animals we may be hunting and regardless of the equipment we hunt with, be it a stickbow or a wheelie bow.

One other aspect of game recovery and bloodtrails that needs to be considered is the animal’s reaction to the shot. If we can get the arrow to blow right though an animal and keep on going, often the animal will not even know what happened. Frequently they’ll jump and look around like “what the heck was that? Then just walk off with blood pouring out both sides and fall over within site. Now compare that to a non-pass through with any broadhead. Whack! That animal instantly knows that something very bad just happened and he’s headed for the next county at light speed. Which one would you rather have to track…? Even with a perfect double lung shot, it can take a deer 90 seconds or more to die and they can sure cover a lot of ground in that time. Now think about broadheads, which will generate more impact force to the animal as it penetrates and cause a greater flight response from the animal, a long narrow 2 blade head or a 3 or 4 blade?

Ron

Oh my, what a gorgeous buck!!! And hogs by the tons — a ton each in some cases, it appears! You clearly have it figured out. Thanks for sharing your photos and experiences.

King,

Heck of a buck and some monster hogs!! Awesome pictures too…to use an old cliche…a picture is worth a thousand words.

Ron,

You make some very valid points and I would have to agree with you on all counts.

Keep’em comin’ guys this is great stuff!

Best,
Dan

King, I think that’s the first picture of yours that I’ve ever seen where the broadheads aren’t bloody! LOL!!!

Sent you a PM.

Ron

Definitely some great evidence here, guys, as to what can happen with well-thought out equipment. I typically shoot 31 1/2″ 2117’s with a 150 gr. Wensel (total weight of about 585-590), and the doe I killed a couple years ago only took a couple jumps, stood around for a few seconds and walked off to die in the bushes about 40-50 yards from the impact point. The shot was a complete pass through, including a nicely cut center-punched rib. However, I have done a little bit of my own experimenting with my target backstop, and the 3 blades don’t get through as nicely as even a cheap 2-bladed bear head will. The backstop is a 4’x 4′ piece of conveyor belt material from a lumber mill here. It’s about 1/2″ thick. The two-blades will actually pull about 4-6″ of shaft through the belting, whereas the 3-blades generally won’t pull more than 2″ of shaft through. This tells me that I may have problems with large-bone penetration with my Wensels, especially if I catch a shoulder blade or something similar on an elk, bear or a bigger whitetail or mulie buck. Smaller does probably won’t pose too much problem, but you never know. I do have one question, though. What are some good solid single-piece, single-bevel, two-blade broadheads that don’t require a glue-in screw-in adapter? If I could get a few ideas from the more experienced shooters and hunters in here, it would help me immensely. Thank you.

Michael

ok, I give.

King? I GOTTA ASK!

“I bought about 250dz of these shafts about 15 years ago”

250…..dozen? 3 THOUSAND?:shock:

Sweet Mother Mary and Joseph…..I thought I had a lot of arrows……Im practically arrow POOR. LOL

VERY nice photos and nice of you to share, even if I am jealous.

God bless
Steve

skrsr1 wrote: ok, I give. King? I GOTTA ASK!
God bless
Steve

Steve, David has one picture in particular that will explain the “King” thing without so much as a word.

How bout it David, I love that pic!

Ron

Michael,

Gonna be tough to find any good quality single bevel head in the 150 gr. range. Aboyer, Tusker Concords, and Grizzlies are available in that range but, they’re all glue-ons. Any special reason that you don’t want to use adapters?

Ron

Ron,

I’ve had problems with adapters breaking loose from glue-ons in the past, and really don’t want to have that worry/headache. Truthfully, I’d like to move up to a heavier broadhead, as long as I can find a field point that’s relatively close to the same weight. I want to be able to swap my field tips for my broadheads and vice versa, to go from field shoots to hunting without having to have separate arrows for each activity.

Michael

sharpster wrote: Many of us hunt from treestands and it’s a heck of a lot harder to even get an exit hole when shooting through a deer from the top down, and achieving a complete pass through is nearly impossible.

Ron

Hello, Ron. While I agree with much of what you posted, the above quote is the exception. I haven’t been bowhunting as long as some here (only about 25 years), but I’ve never had any problems getting complete pass throughs on Midwestern whitetails shot from treestands. For decades, my paternal grandfather had no problems doing the same out of treestands with a 42# recurve shooting 400-something-grain arrows and 3-blade heads COI heads. To be honest, none of my regular hunting partners have experienced penetration issues either. If we were to compare penetration, we’d have to do so in inches of dirt, not inches of tissue.

Unless someone’s shooting extremely low poundage, if they are having penetration problems with whitetails, I’d be inclined to believe something other than number of bevels on their broadheads is to blame. After all, Ashby states that, with respect to penetration, proper bow tuning on ranks second only to the arrow’s structural integrity—the number of bevels ranks 9th out of 10.

That being said, I switched to 2-blade heads (Ace Standards to be exact) from 3- and 4-blade models back in 2004 in anticipation for an elk hunt. I liked the heads and the gentleman who makes them so much that I’ve shot them ever since. Five hunting seasons and a couple dozen big game animals later (deer, wild boar, elk and moose) I have yet to see any meaningful difference between the amount of blood an animal leaves on the ground and how many blades I shoot through them. Sharp edges and proper shot placement seem to play a bigger role in that regard than does broadhead size. But then again, the same could be said for penetration as well.

Mr. Wesbrock,

You have to place what Dr. Ashby is saying into context. The single bevel criteria ranks as low as it does on his list given a soft tissue hit…when heavy bone is encountered the single bevel requirement jumps close to the top…top three I believe (recollection from reading the passage). That being said the amount of blood on the ground has been distilled to a few things…shot placement (high or low in the chest cavity), the existence of an exit hole and what vital structure(s) are cut or ruptured on the way through.

I do not doubt that you have had complete penetration as stated above but have you ever hit a shoulder blade or other similar heavy bone with those heads? I am not picking a fight, I am genuinely interested in your experience.

Along the lines of proper context, please bear in mind I was responding to a statement about it being nearly impossible to achieve a pass through on a whitetail shot from a treestand, not necessarily trying to shoot through heavy bone (which really isn’t a good idea to begin with). So that brings us back to number of bevels being 9th out of 10. Personally, if I couldn’t repeatedly get arrows through whitetails, the number of bevels on my broadheads would be the absolute last of my concerns.

Let’s be honest, in terms of North American big game, whitetails are one of the easiest species to penetrate.

You asked if I’ve ever hit a whitetail shoulder blade or similar heavy bone, and the answer is yes—barring one instance, all on the offside, as it should be. The sole entrance side heavy bone hit occurred when I misjudged the distance on a whitetail buck and hit the upper leg bone just below the knuckle where it attaches to the shoulder blade. I broke the bone in half, went through the chest, and stuck the arrow in the dirt. The deer was down in a few second leaving a blood trail I could follow from my treestand.

All of the rest of my heavy bone hits (shoulders and upper leg bones) have been on the exit wound side of shots. Every time, without fail, I have broken through those bones and had complete pass throughs. As a bonus, the double bevel 2-blade heads I shoot have never even come out with dubbed tips, let alone any real damage.

Wow…I am impressed as I have not had similar experiences. In fact I have had quite the opposite on two occasions which make me sick to this day. What are you shooting for a set-up…bow weight, arrow weight, shaft material, EFoC etc. I am also confused as to this “whitetails are one of the easiest to penetrate” statement that a lot of people seem to be using. If hit in the soft correct place and comparing it to say a moose then I would agree that they are easier than said moose, but on a heavy bone hit with some of my prior set-ups those deer might as well be armor plated.

Again, I am not picking a fight just sayin…

My standard “go-to” setup is a recurve pulling mid-50’s for poundage and carbon arrows weighing around 9gpp (500-510 grains). I use 125-grain heads and standard Flightmate glue-in adapters (I think they weigh approximately 20 grains). If my memory is correct the FOC on my arrows is in the neighborhood of 12%, although I really don’t pay attention to FOC. I’ve only measure it once in the last 20 years, and that was because someone asked.

There’s really nothing to be confused about with respect to whitetails being one of the easiest North American big game animals to penetrate. Compared to the rest of the animals in that category (at least in the conventional sense) they are lightweight, have thin skin, and with proper shot placement they don’t have much of any heavy bone obstructing the vitals.

You know… I’ve had some pretty poor blood trails in my day. I’ve been a victim of the “sharp enough” syndrome. I actually stopped using Grizzly broadheads after following a marginal blood trail. (Even though it was a complete pass through and the deer only made it about 75 yards running full tilt until he dropped.) It wasn’t fair to the broadhead, but I didn’t see that then.

I believe it was Charlie Lamb I read post somewhere that getting your broadheads sharp, sharp, SHARP is very important. I agree. Get those broadheads SHARP.

As far as the kind of broadhead, I’ve had very good results on whitetails with 2, 3, and 4-blade broadheads. I’ve taken only one caribou and one moose. The longbow was 48# and the broadheads long-narrow 3:1 Hunter’s Edge. The arrows were wood, about 500 grains. On the moose I hit a rib on the near side and took about a 1″ chunk out of it, went through part of a rib on the other side, and lodged in the opposite shoulder blade. The moose expired within 60 seconds. It was amazing! The caribou was an accidental spine shot and the broadhead completely severed the spinal cord. He dropped in his tracks. (Same arrow/broadhead setup) I’ve had very good results from long, narrow broadheads.

So what about the single bevel stuff?

I’ve always been a “Show Me” kind of guy. Even John Dodge, the man who taught me arrow building always said, “T, I don’t want you to believe a word I say. I want you to try it for yourself.”

Well, Dr. Ashby has been testing arrow lethality for decades. Now, more and more of us are trying it for ourselves. When we try it ourselves, we prove it to ourselves. It either works or it doesn’t. Dr. Ashby’s findings have been tested and those tests have proven to be dependable and repeatable. If anyone isn’t sure they can believe the single bevel claims, I say test it yourself.

Any bowhunter who cares about the game he or she pursues owes it to themselves and to their quarry to shoot the equipment that results in the highest likelihood of reliable, quick, and humane kills… even when things don’t go as planned.

Blessings! todd

Todd,

Well put. Do you have anymore experience othen than the one whitetail and the grizzly combo? I am very interested as I have yet to harvest an animal with a single bevel. I have been doing a lot of testing and have confimed Dr. Ashby’s findings for myself; needless to say I am very excited for the upcoming fall!

Well said, Todd! I may well steal your John Dodge quote as my “signature” here, as it says everything I tried to say in my book-length intro to this forum, and more, in succinct beauty! Put up (try it for yourself) or shut up and leave me alone. We are fighting modern bowhunting cultural inertia, and good on us for that: “Swim upstream! Even a dead fish can go with the flow.” My motivation is straightforward and devoid of pride: For years I had “disappointing” results (a self-serving euphemism for doing sloppy work) with “well placed shots” using “shaving sharp broadheads” on elk. Once I started experimenting with Ashby’s research findings, that soul-shredding-painful history found its happy end.

IronCreek — you won’t be disappointed this fall! Put your heavy, high FoC, single-bevel, two-blade heads sharp heads low and forward and unless you’re hunting in a jungle where you can’t see 20 yards, they’ll drop in sight. Of course, ground-level shots are a great advantage in gaining double-lung/heart pass-throughs as well.

In my half-century of bowhunting, we’ve forgotten most of what basic knowledge we’d learned in eons of painful experiments. Of course primitive hunters often did a sloppy and “unethical” job of killing game with gear and tactics that would be considered unethical today and mostly illegal. But what choice did they have? I have a friend in bush AK who “fishes” with nets and considers catch-and-release “playing with your food.” When survival is the object, higher ethical considerations go out the window. We’ve all seen paintings by Catlin and other early white painters in the West of Indians on horseback with short bows drawing to shoot yet another light wood arrow into a buffalo who already has several shafts sticking out of it, none with deep penetration. That’s how they did it, because that’s all they had to work with. We have neither the moral justification nor the need for that sort of BS today.

OOps, there I go again, being an “elitist” … sorry …

Not an “elitist” Dave…lets call it enlightened…;)

Jesse — I got poor penetration on elk because I was shooting fat, light (500-550 grain) aluminum arrows with 125 replaceable blade heads (Thunderheads). Overall weight too low, low/almost no FoC, relatively poor penetrating heads all added up, from a 64# recurve, to provide insufficient penetration for elk, esp. when hitting a rib going in. Not always: I killed my biggest bull with that setup. With double-lung penetration but no pass-through, and a shad too high to get the heart, we ran off maybe 70 yards and I cow called him back to die about 20 yards from me, all of which took about a minute and he’d covered over a hundred yards. That was the best. The worst was a bull I hit in the shoulder with a cedar shaft and 125 grain Wolverine, about 550 grains with same 64# bow. The thin Wolverine tip bent and broke off down to the ferule and fell right out, having penetrating only an inch or two to the bone. Elk was unhurt. That flimsy Wolverine, I understand, has seen been taken off the market. Then there were several more in between — I’ve written the full story of the “Same Bull Twice,” which survived 2 weeks with a Thunderhead in one lung before I found and killed him. Others it took me hours to track down with lousy blood trails (that’s with 3-blades) and often needing a follow-up shot. Since I adopted the Ashby basics of heavy arrow, heavy strong 2-blade head, etc., I’ve killed every elk I’ve hit, and had to trail none because they died in sight. And that’s after dropping about 10 pounds of draw weight to the mid-50s with longbows … ah, but these newer r/d longbows produce more speed than that older recurve! We can, and will, argue circumstances and hypotheticals till the sun turns blue, and it’s fun and educational, but that pragmatic personal experience is the source of all my conviction and proselytizing of Ashby’s work and all the proof I need. Oh, and yes Jesse, all my arrows, then and now, have perfect flight or I don’t take them hunting. Time to go split some firewood. Winter will be here again before we know it, and none too soon for me. dave

I recently gave up using 2 bladed double bevel Magnus 100gr broadheads (not the Magnus stinger type) off my compound. While I found them to be extremely accurate and extremely lethal on feral goats, on wild pigs they were far from ideal. I think the larger muscle mass and subcutaneous fat on pigs tended to contract around wounds restricting the blood flow and as a result I lost several pigs no matter how excellent the shot placement was. Even pigs that I recovered left very little blood trail. So I now stick to three blades off the compound. Off my longbow, I shoot Grizzly 145gr, and I will post my results in the “Stories, experiences and Ashby-inspired set-up” thread.

Who is getting excited to follow some 2-blade blood trails? I know I am! Early doe season starts here on the 17th…yeehaw!

Jesse Minish wrote: I have read a lot about guys saying they shoot 3 blade broad heads or 2 blades with bleeders because you can not get a good blood trail with a 2 blade head. I was just wondering if most of you agree with this?

Generally speaking, I don’t photograph blood trails or wounds. As a matter of fact, I go to rather extreme lengths to get any hint of blood out of my photos. But yesterday was opening day of deer season in Wisconsin, and as I was leisurely walking along my 2-blade blood trail (1 3/16” double bevel), I remembered this thread and decided to break my own rule of photography.

There was copious blood at the shot location, and more than enough to easily follow to my deer. Like I posted earlier, I don’t worry about having enough blood on the ground from 2-blade heads.

Photo 1 of 3:

Photo 2 of 3:

Photo 3 of 3:

Congrats on the early success. I’ve been fortunate enough to be on several dozen of my own blood trails and a bunch of others as well. It’s weird how one hit just leaves a ton on the ground and the same location may leave you much less on the next animal, regardless of broadhead used. It really hasn’t seemed to matter whether there were 2, 3 or 4 blades.

I’m afraid a lot of folks will switch broadheads after one less-than-easy blood trail. Probably wasn’t the broadhead’s fault at all. Fat or that sticky stuff between the hide and meat (I admit I can’t think of the name of it) can plug the hole and that’s that.

IMO, Shot placement and penetration are WAY more important than blood on the ground. Take care of the first two and you have your animal even if sometimes it takes some time. I’ll take penetration (but sometimes a challenging trail)over lack thereof (even if the latter is accompanied by a bunch of superficial blood).

To add detailed information to this question, no matter the broadhead you use, and at the same time become an active part of the ongoing Ashby studies, download and use Dr. Ashby’s official blood trail information form. You’ll find the link in the TBADMIN post at the very top of the Ashby forum. Ed will appreciate it. Thanks, Dave

So what was at the end of that trail?

Wary Buck,

I couldn’t agree more. Over the years I’ve had near identical hits with identical heads leave very different blood trails.

This particular deer had me scratching my head a bit. It was a 17-yard right broadside shot, and I watched the arrow zip through tight to the front leg about a third of the way up. Granted, the impact was about 2” lower than I wanted, but I knew it would still take out both lungs and probably the heart.

Since I’ve been using 2-blade heads, I can’t recall any deer I shot through both lungs and didn’t see or at least hear go down. But this one ran off, and then everything went silent. So I gave it a half hour and started tracking.

The buck made it about 120 yards before going expiring, which while being perfectly acceptable, was a lot longer than I’ve come to expect. When I found the deer, there wasn’t a drop of blood on its mouth or nose, and it should have looked like it went bobbing for apples in cherry Kool-Aid. Upon field dressing, I figured out the problem.

When you look at a deer’s lungs, they appear to have three lobes—front, middle and rear. But this deer had a deformed left lung. Instead of having a full front lobe, it had only the top ridge. My arrow passed through the front lobe of the entrance side lung, the center of the heart, and through where the front lobe of the left lung should have been. Essentially, the deer was hit through one lung and the heart, despite what should have been both lungs and the heart. Sometimes, strange things happen.