That’s a good topic Jim.

I qualified expert with 1911’s in the Corps, and still can take the complete center out of the manikin targets used for qualifying for concealed carry and a 1911 is still my choice of self defense. But when I’m bowhunting I don’t carry one handily and if I did and I could access the weapon quickly I would probably only make a lot of racket if a bear was after my tail.

Humans can be trained to react somewhat properly in panic situations but most us are not.

I don’t deal with bears but I’ve had the same thoughts dealing with a big old mad sow or boar hog. That’s a hell of a critter to come charging at you too.

Wonder if pepper spray would have any effect on a mad piggy??

Anyone had experience with that?

Well, I live in a place with one of the greatest concentrations of grizz in the lower 48 out my back door, and deal with the possibility of an encounter every time I go for a hike or hunt, so I’ll take a stab. I think it’s worth, first and foremost, taking a look at the commonalities in most grizz attacks. And when you do, a couple big trends stand out:

1) The vast majority of bad encounters with grizz happen with the victim barely having time to say “oh #$&*!” before the bear is on them. They are usually very close-range, surprise encounters – not situations where one sees a bear coming at them from a 100 yards away and has plenty of time to draw and accurately acquire a target. Things tend to happen very, very fast in bear attacks.

2) Statistically, the majority of grizz attacks involve a sow with cubs, and a hiker, hunter, etc. unknowingly getting too close, or between them.

3) Another common attack scenario is bumping into a bear on its day bed. Again – by nature, these tend to be very close-range, surprise encounters.

It’s also worth remembering that as bowhunters, we tend to be doing everything exactly the opposite of what is strongly recommended in grizz country – we move quietly, we hunt the wind, we tend to hunt alone, or with only one other person (groups of at least 4 are considered a standard minimum “safe” number when hiking in grizz country).

For many, a handgun provides great peace of mind when hiking/hunting in bear country. But, I think a lot of people are fooling themselves when it comes down to the likely grizz attack scenario. As you hint at Jim, being proficient with a large-bore handgun under controlled conditions at the range is one thing. Being proficient from a holstered start in a surprise, high-stress encounter in which one likely only has a few seconds to react and be extremely accurate on a fast moving target, is an entirely different matter. And in the case where one is unsuccessful at the above? You now have a wounded and pissed-off bear – an even worse scenario than you started with.

I think the #1 bear defense that one can have in grizz country is really good, continual situational awareness. A lot of bad encounters can be avoided simply by being aware of bear behavior and always having your radar “on,” especially in limited-visibility scenarios. And if you’re in a particular place where your radar is going off and that 6th sense is telling you something, forget about the hunt and make some noise – most bears don’t want to attack anyone, and will go the other way. Combine this with understanding bear behavior, and knowing what to do if/when you see one – not every sighted bear is necessarily a bear that is agressive and intent on attacking you, especially at a distance.

Though nothing is fail-safe, bear spray has been demonstrated, time and time again, to be a really good option. It has deterrred many attacks. And one of the big advantages of bear spray is that it doesn’t require being accurate in a quick surprise situation, since it sprays a cloud.

All of the above notwithstanding, there are times when I don’t think that having a firearm in grizz country is necessarily a bad idea, though personally I consider it a last resort, which is why I’m mentioning it last. There can be some situations where you actually do have time to react properly with a handgun and where it may be the necessary tool, but you better be very well-practiced with it in realistic scanarios. Hunting alone, as I often do, I don’t mind having options – I always carry bear spray at the ready, and if I’m choosing to also carry a firearm, it’s a .44 mag loaded with 300gr. flatnose rounds (I wouldn’t recommend carrying anything less for grizz). And I hope I never find myself in a situation where I have to use it.

I’d say, Bruce, you nailed that one tot he barn door.

I read on a handgun site where guys are using cross chest holsters for quick access… but I cannot imagine being accurate with a short-barreled big bore handgun loaded to do-able levels! Course, if a big bruin is swatting you around, you can always stick it in it’s chest and rip off a few… I’d guess adrenalin would offset the recoil to a large extent while a 1200# Griz is trying to make you Sushi!

Accuracy might be moot at the close encounter point you mention, Bruce.

When I lived in MT, you couldn’t carry weapons in Jellystone… big bear country where we fished a bit. I wondered if the then available H&K larger mm flare piece, would have worked… ?

It looked like a big magazine with a trigger on the front and launched several repeated XXmm flares if I recall right…I’d think ANY flare in a major part of a big bear might just command his full attention while you crawl off or run off, or deploy something more permanently disabling.

Respecting both my own life, but alsothat of apex predators, I just tried to avoid such scenarios. I don’t know how I’d live with the torture inflicted that would ensure from dumping a fare into a living animal…:shock:

Living in MT, as you say, reports indicated all charges were close quarters, unpredicted and sometimes deadly, sometimes a few swats and they were gone… leaving you badly chewed or ripped by claw. Nasty biz.

Jim,

I have never used pepper spray on bears, yet. But have used it on people and dogs a bunch. It works in people some of the time. Mostly the poeple are intoxicated so it doesnt work that well. And rarly in dogs. I carry the 5 % stuff. I had to take care of some large nasty dogs last month to get into a house and I gave them a dose of pepper spray and they just rubbed their face a little. Not the reaction I wanted. Usually the other alternative is to use bullets but I try not kill them unless I have too. So the next day I ordered bear spray and carry it now. Haven’t got to use it yet but I am looking forward to the how it will work. If i was in griz country I would carry bear apray and a gun. But u use a hand gun daily.

A friend of mine camped and guided in an area of WY where they tended to relocate problem griz from the park etc…

He shared a story about bear spray this crew might enjoy…

They call Tourists who are not well versed in outdoors…TUR-ONs as in Turist morons…

So this Turon comes into the supply store and buys bear spray with a host of these guys in there shopping for next pack out… they turon leaves with his can of spray and goes out and sits on this big rock in the parking lot… and someone notices he’s reading and fooling with his new can of bear spray…when all of a sudden, the TURON is enveloped in an orage cloud as he’d set off the can pointing at his face….

He’s screaming, puking, snot running and falling off the rock rolling around on the ground…the troops just stood inside dumbfounded knowing that in 15-20 min he’d be fine, but there was nothing they could do or even try to get close to him while he reeked of the spray.

Some other story was where someone was griz attacked and couldn’t get the can around to spray the bear, so they sprayed themselves and every time the bear tried to get near it would run off and finally left!

HOw’s dat for a Sunday tale of two bear sprays?!:roll:

I like what Bruce said.

Brennan- Were you using the pepper spray intended for people? Cause I believe the bear pepper spray is a much higher concentration. Too bad it didn’t work on dogs.

I’ll weigh in cause I spend some time around bears. However, where I live there are only Black Bears. I’ve lived near grizzlies, but its been a few years and I never hunted around them. Blacks and grizzlies are both bears, but they do behave differently, so take what I say with a grain of salt, I know you were interested in grizz, Jim.

Spring and summer I spend time watching black bears in the Redwood National park; no guns in the park. I used to carry bear spray but got tired of it hanging on my belt. Following bears around here often means crawling along their tunnels through the thick undergrowth. I gave up carrying a pack or anything which could snag (like a can of bear spray on my belt). Now I just carry a big walking stick. This summer I saw 8 bears, 6 inside 20 yards. One encounter was about 20 yards from a big boar courting a sow, another I got to 12 yards from a sow in her bed, and in none of these encounters was there any aggression from the bear. I probably spend more time during spring/summer outside of hunting season, crawling around the park after bears, and never have a problem.

During hunting season I carry bear spray in my pack on wilderness hunts, or day hunts if there are lots of bears around. When I’m stalking a bear with my bow with the intention of killing it, I don’t really consider personal risk. Likely if I started worrying about that I’d mess up the shot. But I’ve had a bunch of encounters with aggressive (really defensive) BLACK bears. A sow with cubs lunged at me, small bears will puff themselves up and walk/trot straight at me but have always stopped, they huff and make a lot of noise, and one little guy even ran towards me but just kept on going past. I never had my bear spray out and ready for any of those situations. Most of the time, I had an arrow nocked and my arms were shaking so bad I couldn’t aim.

Even just being close to a bear that doesn’t know I’m there gets me shaking. I’ve watched a totally calm person miss a target from 10 yards with a handgun. No way regular people can shoot accurately enough to kill a bear under high stress situations. Bear spray doesn’t really have to be aimed.

Also, what I really like about bear spray, is the bear lives and learns. No sense in killing an animal for our blundering mistake in the woods (which most grizzly attacks are- us intruding on their kill or cubs or bed; while most black bear attacks are actual predation in which case you won’t see the bear until its on you.)

This also got me thinking about folk in Africa that do the eco-tourism guiding. They regularly bring tourists on foot to view dangerous game. They don’t carry handguns. They carry bolt action rifles with iron sights. More accurate. Obviously we can’t carry around rifles during bow season even if for our safety. I’m not really a fan of allowing handguns during archery season, but I haven’t hunted big wilderness like Alaska. I could understand why someone would want a camp gun in that situation. I think folks just feel safer and tougher with a handgun on their hip. I worry about their eagerness to use it.

One more thang- Jim. Our bear situation is akin to your crocodiles. I mean, how many folks go swimming in crocodile waters every year? and what kind of precautions do you take? If I came down your way, I’d probably be thinking there are crocs waiting to pull me under in every ripple of water! But you know their behavior and habitat and are safer operating in their terrain than I ever would be walking around with a gun for safety.

Ptaylor wrote:

Also, what I really like about bear spray, is the bear lives and learns. No sense in killing an animal for our blundering mistake in the woods (which most grizzly attacks are- us intruding on their kill or cubs or bed; while most black bear attacks are actual predation in which case you won’t see the bear until its on you.)

Good point. It’s a behavioral deterrent.

Ptaylor wrote:

….I worry about their eagerness to use it.

As do I. And I suspect that a number of bad bear encounters have started with someone shooting at a bear that wasn’t actually representing an imminent threat. At least until it was shot and wounded…

Last season I had to get in between my girlfriend and an angry mamma black bear who walked her kids right into us. She treed her cubs and bluff charged us twice. I finally had to put a round into a tree past her nose to turn her away. I’d like to say I was calm and focused but it was a very tense experience. I can’t imagine keeping my composure while facing a grizzly. An animal that is known not to bluff!

After many years of experience in Alaska as a resident and a brown bear guide,I’ve had hundreds of close encounters with both species of bears. I think that Bruce did a very good job of summarizing the issue, and I’ll simply state that I agree with him. A few points bear (no pun) emphasis: 1. Handguns are a very poor means of self-defense against brown/grizzly bears for all the reasons mentioned. The Alaska Department of Fish and Game agrees, based on history and penetration tests. 2. Pepper spray really works! I’ve only had to use it once, but the results were impressive. 3. Don’t underestimate black bears. I’ve had far more trouble with them, and they kill more people in Alaska than grizzlies. Three times I (or a companion) had to shoot a bear (with bow no less) that continued to advance despite knowing exactly what we were. All were black bears. Don

Last time that I looked at the records kept by the Alaskan Fish and Game Department (About 4 years ago) Bear Spray was the best Bear deterrent hands done. If my memory serves me right at that time there were no successful bear attacks on the persons that deployed Bear Spray. There were quit a few successful attacks on persons that deployed firearms.

donthomas wrote: 1. Handguns are a very poor means of self-defense against brown/grizzly bears for all the reasons mentioned. The Alaska Department of Fish and Game agrees, based on history and penetration tests. Don

Don,

That’s interesting, what does the department say about handgun penetration?

Preston

Preston–Those studies were done some time ago, and I can’t lay my hands on them now. Basically, they did Ashby-style studies with various weapons on brown bear carcasses. The conclusion was that neither shotguns (buckshot or slugs) or handguns were capable of obtaining adequate preparation to stop a bear, and that if you chose a firearm for that purpose it should be a big rifle–.338 or preferably heavier. I carried a .458 when following wounded bears into the alders. I have seen brown bears absorb some incredible punishment even from large caliber rifles before going down. For the purposes we’re talking about, bear spray is definitely the way to go. Don

Don Thomas, I appreciate your input on this subject. I’ve read your thoughts, and they certainly make sense. I seem to recall that your friend, Doug Borland, another experienced Alaska hunter, recommended a flare gun over bear spray. I may be wrong about this, but would appreciate your thoughts. I have trouble with the idea of a slow to reload flare gun, versus a cloud of spray. Your thoughts, please.

Jim,

That’s a great article, thanks! Funny, that’s the same month/year I was born.

Murray–I’ve been in the woods–sorry for the late reply. I have heard of using a marine flare gun in this circumstance and Doug often carries one for bear deterrence. I have no direct experience with it. One advantage over spray is that wind direction isn’t a factor. Don

I have kids older than some of youse guys.