Topic: Broadhead sharpness and bloodtrails

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- sharpster
  October 15, 2010 at 2:55 am
  
  Post count: 91
  #5972
  
  Thought I would share these photos and the related story sent to me a couple days ago from one of our own TBM members who wishes to remain anynomous. This shows in very dramatic fasion how much the level of broadhed sharpness influences the amount of blood on the ground… particularly when the shot placement is less than ideal. First the story:
  
  Arrow: Carbon Express Rebel Hunter, 29 in., 100 grain brass inserts, 100 grain steel adapters, 200 grain Grizzly broadhead (KME sharpened), Total arrow weight 810 grains, EFOC at 25%
  
  Shot was at 22 yards. This was my 67th deer with a bow. The reason that I mention this is some very strange things happened after the shot. I have never experienced anything quite like the following…I grunted the deer in so he was very, very alert looking for the “other deer”. As you can see from the pics, my shot was very high, almost a spine shot. I don’t know if he jumped the string or if I simply made a poor shot…I take full responsibility for the poor shot placement. He only went 15 yrds and was down. He thrashed around for less than a minute and then lay still. I was hunting in real thick stuff, so I really could not see him. I was wanting to put a second “mercy arrow” in him but the brush was way too thick. I considered getting down from my stand for a clear second shot, but from past experiences, when then actually see a human, the “dead deer” get up and run to New Jersey. I stayed put in the stand. At around 15 minutes he began thrashing around again and was trying to get to his feet. I couldn’t figure out what was going on until a saw a huge coyote less than 10 yards from him!!!! I drew back on the coyote but he too was in the thick brush. Thinking he was going to ruin the whole hunt for me I simply yelled “HEY” and he took off to the next county. I think the deer was freaked out a little by me yelling and continued thrashing around for 30 seconds. At around 40 minutes of shooting the deer, I quietly climbed down from my stand and walked the opposite direction to my truck nearly two miles away. My hunting partner was waiting for me at the truck and we went back to get my deer. The pictures were EXACTLY how we found the buck. I have never seen such a display of blood. At first thought, I thought the damn coyote came back and ripped into him. That was not the case. Please note there was NO EXIT HOLE!!!!! All that blood came out of a hole with an arrow stuck in it “plugging the hole”.
  
  After the pics, I wanted to see if my arrow somehow hit the spine. To my surprise, it pulled out very easily. I thought it was “lodged’ in bone, but was not. Strange…
  
  I wanted to do a post-death autopsy but we were very rushed due to the 87 degree heat and the fact I had get it to the locker by 10:00 on a Sunday morning. I few terrible I am unable to provide more details of what the shot actually did to the deer. I guess the pictures “tell it all”.
  
  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind if I had been a “normal arrow and broadhead” instead of my Ashby inspired set-up, things would have been much different. The buck would have simply ran off to die and rot in the heat.
  
  A special thanks to you Ron for all your advice (and KME sharpened broadheads) and especially Dr. Ashby for his research and his approach to helping all of us. Feel free to send pics to Trad.bow. Please, none of me though…Don’t hesitate to contact me if I can provide any further “data”. Best wishes;
  
  And now the pictures:
  
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  Again, I’d like to point out that the BHD did not hit the spine, nor the major artery below the spine, and did not achieve pass through penetration. All this blood is the result of the “two blade slit” taking out only the very top of both lungs and with the shaft still “plugging” the hole.
  
  Ron
- Rogue
  October 15, 2010 at 5:01 am
  
  Post count: 84
  #46538
  
  I am confused at the lack of penetration on that shot, but what amazing results. Congrats to the hunter for creating an arrow/broadhead combination that worked well when the shot wasn’t perfect.
  
  Bill
- Stephen Graf
  Moderator
  October 15, 2010 at 10:41 am
  
  Post count: 2429
  #46778
  
  sharpster wrote:
  …I wanted to do a post-death autopsy but we were very rushed due to the 87 degree heat …
  
  …Again, I’d like to point out that the BHD did not hit the spine, nor the major artery below the spine, and did not achieve pass through penetration. All this blood is the result of the “two blade slit” taking out only the very top of both lungs and with the shaft still “plugging” the hole…
  Ron
  
  Great story, beautiful deer!
  
  But I have to respectfully disagree with your conclusions. It looks to me like you hit the artery that runs under the spine. If you hit the lungs enough to cause this bleeding, the deer would have drowned in a few minutes. In addition, there would have been blood coming from the nose and mouth. Can’t tell from the pictures. But I don’t see the tell tail “streaking” on the ground that results from a deer that is bleeding from the mouth moving its head back and forth.
  
  If the arrow hit no bone, why did it not pass through? I find this hard to believe.
- sharpster
  October 15, 2010 at 12:51 pm
  
  Post count: 91
  #46883
  
  Steve,
  
  This is definately one of those “what the heck happened”??? shots. I would normally agree with you about the major artery hit as well if I had only the photos to judge by but, I spent close to an hour on the phone with the hunter last night prior to posting this because I was perplexed as anyone as to the lack of penetration given the heavy arrow/broadhead combo being shot from a 50+ pound bow.
  
  Here’s why I don’t believe the major artery beneath the spine was hit: The deer took at least 15 minutes to succumb. I’ve made that artery hit several times over the years myself and when the artery is cut the deer don’t live 2 minutes…(ever in my experience). And here’s why I don’t think a direct spine hit was made either: The deer traveled 15 yards or so before going down, and every true spine shot I’ve ever seen or heard of resulted in the animal dropping in its tracks. Having had a bit more time to ponder this I’m begining to suspect that given that this buck survived for 15 minutes, perhaps only one lung was hit??? And it simply bled out over that course of time???… Don’t know and unfortunately we’ll never know for sure because the deer was rushed to the processer due to the hight temps on the day of the kill and a detailed necropcy was impossible. We don’t even have pics from inside the body cavity which may have shed some light on exactly what happened here.
  
  As for the lack of penetration, could it be that the BHD hit a rib very near the spine where the rib bones are much tougher? or could the arrow have hit a small twig and deflected slightly in flight causeing it to loose some of it’s energy? or perhaps both? Again this is a wierd one for sure but we all know that weird things happen from time to time. I’m a honed and stropped BHD advocate for exactly the reason that the pictures show- greatly increased blood flow with little clotting but even I was amazed by these pictures.
  
  For the record I know the hunter very well and can vouch for his credibility. Here’s a good example of how an Ashby set up coupled with a screamin sharp BHD can make the difference when things don’t go as planned… even when the circumstances seem to defy explaination.
  
  Ron
- sharpster
  October 15, 2010 at 1:08 pm
  
  Post count: 91
  #46904
  
  One other thought on this… It apears that this particular animal bled “out” rather than internally. If you look at the amount of blood on the ground, that’s similar to what you’d expect to see at the sight where the deer was field dressed. I didn’t ask but with so much blood on the ground it’s hard to believe that there could have been much left inside the body cavity???
  
  Ron
- Ed Ashby
  Member
  October 15, 2010 at 1:19 pm
  
  Post count: 817
  #46915
  
  Ron, I’ve seen very, very similar results once before; on a bushbuck. I did get to post mortem that shot and have a few thoughts to share about this hit, but have an apointment I have to go to right now. I’ll share those thoughts when I get back.
  
  Ed
- Ed Ashby
  Member
  October 15, 2010 at 4:06 pm
  
  Post count: 817
  #47084
  
  Ron, here’s my SPECULATION on that shot. The lack of penetration is easy to account for. Think of the shape of the ribs just below the spine. The surface the broadhead is impacting is a double arch, with a curving surface lengthwise of the rib and a curving surface in cross section too. Even the best of broadheads, like this Grizzly, have a skip angle of approximately 45 degrees, with many broadheads of wider dimensions having skip angles as low as 25 degrees. When the broadhead skids on the surface it redirects the arrow’s force vector. Much of the arrow’s force is no longer linear, with respect to the direction of arrow penetration.
  
  The off side penetration barrier – the off side ribs – are mere inches away from the on side penetration barrier (the on side ribs). With the arrow’s reduced force (after a skid, or deflection) there is little retained in-line force for the arrow to penetrate the off side rib(s), and the arrow often stops right against the ribs. That was the penetration outcome I had on a bushbuck on a near identical hit. That shot was at about 25 yards, from my 94# longbow, with a 800+ grain arrow with a 190 Grizzly, and I think that’s what happened here. Like this deer, the bushbuck went down almost immediately, though there was no indication that the spine itself was hit. I believe that was a result of the blow to the rib being transferred to the spinal cord; a temporary stunning effect. I can think of no other reason for the near immediate collapse.
  
  The skip angle of your broadhead is a greatly overlooked factor when there is an angular impact on bone. It’s something folks should pay more attention to, especially those who hunt from elevated stands. With the multidirectional curving surfaces of the ribs; especially towards the top, as they near spinal attachment; it is very easy to exceed the critical skip angle; the angle between the broadhead’s direction of travel and the surface of the bone. Shooting at a downward angle onto those ribs magnifies the odds of broadhead skip. Once there is a skip/skid of the broadhead your arrow then has to perform its “work” with whatever (now greatly decreased) arrow force it retains. When that does happen, it is a huge advantage to be using a broadhead with very high Mechanical Advantage. It allows the arrow to do more ‘work” with whatever arrow force IS available.
  
  As for the blood, it is bright pink; definitely highly oxygenated. That means either lung or arterial blood. I doubt that the aortic artery, just below the spine, was severed; for the same reason you state. They die very quickly when that vessel is totally severed. On the other hand the blood looks less frothy than I would expect from a lung hit. Without a full post mortem there’s no way to be certain what was hit, but I would THEORIZE that the aortic artery was merely nicked, and the smooth, super sharp edge permitted free bleeding to continue unabated until blood loss was sufficient to cause death.
  
  This is an excellent example of why there is no such thing as overkill in bowhunting. A highly likely that, had he been using a lesser arrow setup, a broadhead with a poorer skip angle and/or lower Mechanical Advantage, or anything less than a “truly sharp” broadhead that the outcome would not have been this good.
  
  Ed
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