😯 This should get interesting:wink:

Dr. Ashby,

You post a ton of very useful information for us to mull over and use. Thank you.

I’ve been an aluminum shooter for the extent of my nearly 8 year shooting career. However, when I did try to build an EFOC aluminum arrow, I had problems with the sides of my arrows blowing out. Too brittle of a material to build with? What are your thoughts? Are your EFOC arrows carbon, aluminum or wood? Due to my severe inexperience with wood, I’m considering switching to a carbon shaft for the ease of gaining FOC.

Michael

Ed,

Thanks. I’ll most likely go the route of carbons then. Not to be lazy, but I don’t really want to spend a bunch of money that I don’t have, and wind up messing up good wood shafts. Perhaps someday when I get to making my own, or have the luxury of extra money to play with (yeah, right), I’ll buy some good wood footed shafts. What about a tapered shaft? Thicker at the front than the back? And what diameters would a person shoot for on a tapered shaft?

Michael

I thought maybe David DeVille would chime in on this thread.
Where you at King?

Richie

Good stuff Ed. Glad to see you online again. Glad your doing better.
g

Doc. You rock 😀

I’m not scared of no shoulder lol

60lb longbow 800 grain arrow 28% efoc 300 grain El Grandy

Deer was 20 yards quatering away, I was 18 ft up a tree. A large Northern Missouri doe 140lbs live weight deer. This was the entrance side going thru the oppsite side where the scapla and leg bone meet breaking it. Completly going thru, Arrow was a 25%FOC, footed, skinnycarbon with a SilverFlame on top. In the last few years the differance has been huge in penatration since going to the “right” arrow. King what are you talking about, 2 blades dont leave blood trails and arrows dont go throug bones:lol

OK, amigos, I’m forced to play moderator here and try to “moderate” this thread in order to keep it on a positive trail. I understand Ed’s frustration with uninformed and openly biased criticism of his careful work and his need to defend himself here. After all, this is the Ashby forum! But let’s please forget about other sites and keep the focus of discussion on the technical info Ed is discussing here — as Michael has done for example. I’ve had to delete a bunch of posts toward that end and trust you understand. For the record I know what you’re speaking of from aggravating personal experience! Re-read my intro comments laying out the ground rules for this forum and you’ll get hints of that. But what is elsewhere should stay elsewhere, and we here don’t need to go there, as we absolutely don’t feel in competition with another site or want any “us vs. them” animosity. (You can of course PM as you wish, as PMs here are in fact private.) So I beg your understanding for deleting posts that are basically innocent and unoffensive. We are determined to avoid that potential minefield and keep this site focused on a positive learning and sharing experience, and by golly I believe our track record, your track record, so far does just that. Thanks for your help and understanding. You guys/gals are the greatest. I’ll conclude by pointing out that one of my test shots on a dead 5×5 bull elk this year was an intentional 45-degrees into the scapula. The “Ashby arrow set-up” blew a big hole in the blade and achieved 17″ penetration! But King’s photos and others here speak louder than words! Steady on …Dave

Here’s the deal, the law says you can shoot crap if you want to, because fish and game has no clue of what is an effective arrow broadhead set up, lot’s of folks think surely fish and game would MAKE us shoot tackle that is sufficient to kill at least most of the time.

Then theirs the folk that think because the cave man shot crap for a living, surely his tackle was sufficient, and still there’s the folks that think “I have killed xxxx amount of animals and no ones got a better set up than me.

Then still there are the folk that say this is the way it’s always been done…..

The stubborn & foolish still say the earth is flat regardless of tons of evidence to the contrary.

Colorado division of wildlife is a perfect example of being stuck in the stone age ( except there tag fees are ahead of there time 😡 ) according to there hunting regulations you can hunt Elk & Moose with a 35lb bow and a 200 grain arrow with an expandable broadhead, yep! it’s a 100% legal bow and arrow set up.

I can shoot this set up and there is nothing you can do about it, I also could shoot this set up out to 30-40 yards and there is nothing you can do about it.

Now most of us would say that set up is an abomination; why? it’s legal; most know there is no doubt this set up will fail more than it will succeed, a-ha! 💡 that’s the point.

The ignorant and stubborn just want to shoot what they want to shoot, regardless of the amount of times it might fail, and no amount of information will change there minds ( that’s sad, but it’s true )

I am not a kool-aid drinker, just the opposite, I had to prove what the Doc. was dispensing, however I was getting the same result he was getting before I knew what it was, I just stumbled on the results, as I am always looking for the deadliest set up with the limitations we have chosen.

The Traditional Bowhunting community owes a huge debt to Doctor Ashbey, especially the 40lb shooters as his latest study proves; you also can breach bones should you come in contact with them.

This is one of the recent test volunteers for the Ashbey arrow study.

2 blade blind mans blood trail.

Volunteer #2

It’s about SHARP for a blind mans blood trail, if you struggle with what is sharp, let Ron at KME show you the way.

King David — Man, are you right about the CO draw weight limit of 35 pounds for big game being an embarrassment and abomination! Not to mention a huge insult to the animals we hunt. That is on my list of gripes I present to the wildlife commission at every op, always to be dismissed by the big state bowhunting group, who if nothing else have lobbying the commission and DOW down pat. We can thank CBA for the 35 pound rule. Why, because they wanted their kids and wives to be able to hunt big game even when they’re too weak to pull a decent poundage on a high let-off compound. This group also helped block a very near miss by Doc and me in getting mechanical broadheads outlawed in this state. But we’ll be back! Now, back to Ed’s discussions with us of shoulder shots … don’t want to hijack this excellent thread but just had to get that out. 35 pounds for elk! Lord help the idiots. dave

David Petersen wrote: 35 pounds for elk! Lord help the idiots. dave

I killed my first elk in Colorado in 1979 with a cheap 43 lb recurve. It was a mature cow and only went 20 yards after the hit. I don’t know the arrow weight, but it was one of those fiberglass arrows with a 145 gr broadhead – it was heavy. I have to admit, the 35 lb limit scares me less than the 200-300 gr arrow.

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote:
I’ve got several photos of buffalo test shots with low mass arrows and poor broadheads shot from heavy compounds generating just shy of 95 foot-pounds of KE. After they hit and failed to even stick in the rib, the arrows are hanging down like a picador’s lance; held in only by the on-side skin.

Back then, I didn’t know much about the “hows and whys” of what it took to kill big game. I just knew that I never doubted that my setup would kill large elk. I knew how easily it sent an arrow through a whitetail and figured the elk didn’t have much chance. It wasn’t until I broke my recurve and decided to give a compound a try, that I started doubting my bow set-up. I got caught up in the speed craze and started shooting lighter arrows out of a 70 lb compound. All of a sudden I had arrows that would not pass through on a medium size whitetail. Yet, when I got a new recurve, the arrows, once again, worked like I expected. They were heavier more by accident than anything. It was what I could get flying well, so it’s what I went with.

It wasn’t until I read your first published study on arrow lethality that my eyes were opened. It hit me almost instantly why my light draw weight recurves were out performing my high KE compounds. Since then, it’s been a steady learning experience – as steady as the frequency of the publishing of your new studies. 😉

Doc — such a rare opportunity to “argue” with my teacher! Certainly, your testing has proven that a lighter bow with a heavier, EFoC arrow, penetrates and kills far better than a heavier bow with light, low FoC arrows (broadhead choice notwithstanding). No argument! I’ve proven this to myself by shooting completely through elk with mid-50s longbows and heavy arrows, when I consistently failed to do that with mid-60s recurves and mid-weight (550) arrows. Even so, this is an apples vs oranges discussion. For a state wildlife dept. to declare to the uneducated bowhunting public that 35 pounds is enough for elk, moose and bear, remains a travesty of fact and ethics! Eh, no? dave

I personally think it may be time to re-think what is and what is not an “ethical” shot in bowhunting.

Why is it ethical to purposely shoot a deer with an average caliber rifle in the shoulder bones? My answer is because it is usually pretty affective.

When a bowhunter uses an Ultra 650 arrow (650 gr. and Ultra-EFOC) and aims middle and tight to the shoulder, it will ethically and significantly decrease the chance of a guacamole gut shot.
IF the Ultra 650 arrow hits the shoulder bones why would that be considered “unethical” compared to the rifle shot?

The arrow is going to do as much or more damage to the deer and have more penetration by a larger projectile than the smaller bullet.

Also, if it IS “unethical” to shoot a deer in the shoulder bones with an adequate arrow like the Ultra 650 then why ISN”T it “unethical” to allow an inadequate arrow to be used at all?

Richie

For at least two years now I have asked the other camp that question…Why not look at the facts and prepare for the not-so-perfect shot? They immediately become defensive, which usually means guilt, and twist it around to say nothing.

I have yet to hear any of them say it but I think I know the answer.
The light, fast, flat shooting sexy arrow is just too attractive and they will forever defend it regardless of anything to the contrary.

They just will not admit it. That is hilarious.

Sapcut wrote: They immediately become defensive, which usually means guilt, and twist it around to say nothing.

I always hear them say to learn to take better shots. Their recommendation are, among others, don’t shoot beyond a certain range, make sure it’s a quartering away shot, be sure the animal is relaxed, not moving and not near a feeder. I say that is fine for those who have great self control and are aware of all these situations, but most novice and occasional hunters don’t consider this stuff like we do. What is best in their hands, when poor hits are the norm, not the exception?

It seems to me that regulations forcing them to use minimum arrow weights that are much higher, would solve a lot of problems. Current regulations don’t even touch on FOC and probably never will since most people won’t have a clue how to determine it. However, it would help if this research could somehow make it into the bowhunter safety classes. I also believe the “need” for speed is so appealing that it would take regulation to make a difference on arrow weight. Now the huge problem – compound shooters rule the bowhunting groups who would lobby for this and they will certainly not support a weight that would truly make a difference. They are overwhelmingly convinced that KE is the important figure and faster and faster arrows are their only goal.

This information is Outstanding. I was on the phone with Dave “King” today and he informed me about this post. I’m setting up a new hunting bow for this season which starts in april with a hog hunt in Texas. I’m off on my First ever Elk hunt in Aug/Sep time frame. I’ll be using a 58# recurve @ 29″ and a 200 El Grande. As for arrow shafting and insert/adaptor weight, I’ll have to tune that. My goal is to be over the 650gr Bone threshold and EFOC of 25-29% Range.

As Dave and I were talking, why set-up a bow/arrow to just get by, rather set-up a bow/arrow to work under any situation. The Information That the Good Doctor has offered us is for US to use or not use. Nothing Bad can come from using this set-up, Only Good…. Thank You Doc and Dave.

Mark

Ed, your illustrations really show why in the past I’ve always paid particular attention to where the near-side front leg is positioned – always trying to wait until it is in the forward position. However, as we all know, this leg moves and sometimes to the rear as we shoot, which is why I’ve been so thankful for the knowledge your studies have given me. I am now able to be better prepared for the unexpected.

I can only assume that those trying to avoid the shoulder are purposely trying to hit them in the body-center and disembowel them. However, even if that was my purpose, I don’t know why I’d want to do it with a light weight, low FOC arrow.

Just for the record, I will gladly take a bet on those numbers of total shots.

It’s pretty likely that I can let them count their small game too! Over just the last quarter century the number of test shots now numbers in the multiple thousands … not including the 627 bow-killed big game animals and the uncounted total of smaller game taken during that same period! Now, I don’t have an actual record of the kills for the quarter century before I started keeping records, but that’s a few hundred more bow-kills to add in too.

The GOOD BOOK says; give honor where honor is do, it aint bragging if it’s facts

Some of the self proclaimed whitetail gurus and wabbit killers, can’t hold a candle to the hunting record or the documentation of what Doctor Ed Ashby has done and his selfless sharing of his findings to the hunting community.

I for one, stand up and applaud you Sir.

Now let’s keep Edu-ma-cating the uninformed; as has been stated ten thousand times if the arrow go’s exactly where I have shot it, I can use some really light tackle and almost any broadhead with in reason will kill, however according to ALL study’s for kill and lost game reports there is around a 50% hit lost ratio.( I don’t care if you don’t believe that it’s that high, until you do a study to disprove it, it is the facts right now, done by game department all over north America )

It is my belief that we as the conservators of the wild animals must do everything to make as clean and as quick a kill as we possibly can, this is our duty and responsibility.

It’s not about “we have killed a million animals this way” and “it has worked for hundreds of years” that’s just flat out stupid…… when there is proof that with just minor adjustments in equipment we can increase our killing effectiveness.

With out a doubt the quartering away shot offers the biggest and easiest way into the vitals.

This is more of a realistic view for the majority who hunt from trees.

This is more of a level ground view and if the deer takes a step and brings the humerus back it will cover some of the vitals, some times taking a step at the shot and spinning.

As you can see the bones are starting to cover up the vitals and this shot should be avoided, however some times this position happens after the broadside shot has been released and now your hunting tackle will be put to the test

For those who hunt from above, the scapula can come into play vary quickly if the deer reacts at all to the shot

The wild boar is tougher and can take a lot more punishment and keep going than a deer.

Shot placement is even more critical with boars, as deer are thin skinned and not built with that heavy of a structure.
This view is from an elevated position

Again quartering away offers the easiest way into the vitals, however can you see how far the spine drops down as it go’s between the shoulder blades bring the kill zone lower than a deer, aiming for the opposite shoulder is the best shot here and will get both lungs.

This view is at eye level and offers the best shot angle with the least amount of resistance

As you can see above a slight quartering at shot still has the vitals open, but shot placement is even more critical as the hog turns toward the shooter, also can you see that the top 1/3 is no vitals and you really must be at least down that far to get into the vitals.

If a hog turns at the shot the bone can close the kill zone in a split second.

Some times it can be hard to till the exact angle the animal is in as they are constantly moving and not holding still like these pic’s for you to take your time.

This is a no shot

Shot placement is critical for a good result.

The results I’m looking for lol 😛

King, those hog schematics are great. I’ve never been hog hunting (they don’t roam in my neck of the woods), but have considered going on one out of state. Without studying those first, I’d have likely blown it. The lower part of the body has no vitals!

Back off at a right angle to this steel rod ‘picket fence’ and shoot away with different broadheads. You won’t get any multiblade broadheads through without destroying the broadhead. You will be surprised at how many of the single blade heads ‘right themselves’ to pass between the rods.

How do you think of this stuff? oh! that’s right, your an old bush bum. 😳 lol

Just incredible the stuff you have tried, I have to agree with the bone being….. well…., what you said about them, they do deflect and redirect any thing that try’s to breach them.

Also the bones move on impact absorbing a lot of the energy, dissipating and redirecting it away, making it even harder to penetrate.

This hog was above me at around 18 yards in it’s bed slightly quartering at me ( I thought it was perfectly broadside, it wasn’t, this can happen more than you think, with the animals body in a different position and angle than it appears ) it was leaning on it’s left side, the arrow went through the near side rib cutting it in two, angling up and slammed into the spine, a vary unique shot angle

The spine is a geometrical miracle, it has thousands of angles and shock absorbers at each junction, designed to absorb, deflect and redirect any impacts.

As you can see from the pic above it did not just stick into the spine, but started to separate it.

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Our long, narrow, high MA, single blade, single-bevel, Tanto tipped broadhead shows the lowest skip angle of all designs tested.

Ed

Just one quick question…I keep seeing the reference to MA, but I don’t know what it means. Could you clarify this for me? Thanks.

Michael

MontanaFord- Check out the ‘Ashby Library’ on this site- especially ‘Arrow Lethality IV- The Physics of Arrow Penetration’ whereupon the good Dr. explains MA, i.e. mechanical advantage.
Bert

Bert,

Thanks. That’s all I was looking for was what the MA stood for – Mechanical Advantage – Just didn’t know the full lettering. Thanks.

Michael

Up next’s is a bunch of bull

That right there is a bunch of bull……… and would you really shoot at him with a 35lb “D” shaped longbow? 😥 Lord help us.

You can see that this bull has his front leg covering his whole heart and a vary large part of his lungs( so you say; wait for him to take a step and move his leg ) well of course I would, however what happens if at the shot he assumes this position with his muscles flexed and there as hard as steel ( flex your bicep, feel how hard it is when you flex it, well I don’t care how hard it is, it’s like pudding compared to a bulls flexed shoulder muscles )

Perfectly broadside and at eye level, what I hope and pray for.


Shoulder shot, slight down hill and slight quartering away around 28 yards, took 2 bounds then all four feet went in the air, rolled farther that he ran

As you already know, you’ll get a lot of nay say’ers with a 70lb compound and a 380grain arrow 😈

I understand what your saying, ( I think ) I don’t think anyone will shoot a 650 grain arrow out of 35lb bow 😯 they would truly only have a 5 yard shooting capability.

I am so glad that there is a venue for us all to discus this vary touchy subjects with respect for one another.

Kingwouldbe wrote:
I don’t think anyone will shoot a 650 grain arrow out of 35lb bow 😯 they would truly only have a 5 yard shooting capability.

I’m shooting in a winter indoor league right now and I’m using a 650 gr arrow (325 gr tip weight) out of a 45 lb recurve. It’s quite adequate inside of 30 yards. I know that dropping 10 lbs draw weight would reduce the distance I’d feel comfortable at, but I would guess that it would be well past 5 yards. With approximately 25% less draw weight, would I lose more than 25% of my effective range? It would seem to me that it would have to be at least 15-20 yards.

Maybe Ed can give us some insight on the effective range of the 700+ gr arrows out of the 40 lb bow. I would guess that would be comparable.

Regulating arrow weight is a good thing in my opinion, but I doubt it will ever happen to a meaningful degree here in the states. I once got into an online discussion on a bowhunting site about trying to get state game departments to institute a 400 gr minimum. You should have heard the uproar. There was about 4 or 5 of us against the rest of the board. Pretty much everyone thought it was a terrible idea. How dare we tell them they can’t use a 380 grain arrow when they killed 50 deer with an arrow of that weight or less! Imagine what they’d have said if dared mention a 650 grain minimum!

So, although I know that a 650+ gr arrow is good and that a 35 lb bow can probably reliably kill an elk if you’re using the right arrow, I also realize that most people using a 35 lb bow, won’t be anywhere near a 650 gr arrow. Even state game officials are completely ignorant of what it takes to make a lethal bow and arrow set-up, so getting a game law changed in this direction is probably little more than wishful thinking.

OK, maybe I exaggerated a little 😕 however a baseball is around 2,200 grains and can be thrown at around 132 feet per second by high school kids.

With a good arm you might be able to through the arrow faster than a 35lb bow.:shock:

OK, I am way off track now lol

Easy King DeVille, why don’t you let these nice gentlemen in the white outfits take you to a real comfortable and safe place. They are really nice guys!

Kingwouldbe wrote:

With a good arm you might be able to through the arrow faster than a 35lb bow.:shock:

Speed, speed, speed, that’s all I ever hear these days. lol:wink:

OK, let’s forget the bow and arrow, let’s go to baseballs? 😆

All joking aside, my bow, with a roughly 590 grain arrow, cooks out there at rougly 170 fps. Not the fastest bow on the market, necessarily. As for my KE, I think I’m right around 32 ft/lb. Nowhere near what they have posted at the bow shop for “exotic” game. Not that I want to hunt Africa or anything like that.

Michael

Doc,

Just ordered my starting point arrows,
Beamon ICS Bowhunters 340 spine 9.4 GPI
100gr inserts
200gr Grizzly’s
100gr BH adaptor
300gr field points
The way I have it figured the shaft at 30.5 will weight 286.7gr + 100gr insert + 300gr Point + 15gr nock + 10gr feathers + 20gr 2″ aluminium footing 731gr with 420gr on the working end. I’ll let you know my FOC when I get the balance point. This should put me in the high 28-29% area if I’m right. this should work wounders on Hogs and Elk this year as long as I do my part. If I mess up a little I hope I have inproved my arrows performance enough to help me out…..

Mark

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Just to keep anyone from misunderstanding, I’m in the “there’s no such thing as too much penetration” camp when it comes to bowhunting. You should use ALL THE BOW WEIGHT YOU CAN HANDLE (and the best arrow setup you can possibly develop for your hunting needs), and ‘handle’ is the operative word.

Maybe this is the sticky area that is bugging me. I can draw a 70 lb trad bow, no doubt. I shoot a lot and my muscles are in fairly good shape. However, I can not shoot it anywhere near as well as a 55 lb bow. There is a trade off for most people. Draw weight vs accuracy. Now, some are so strong, it really doesn’t matter. They can handle their 70 lb bow as easily as I could a 35 lb bow. There may even be some guys who shoot more accurately with a higher draw weight bow, but I would bet a lot of money that most do not fall into that category.

My brother owns an archery shop, and I’m there a lot. We’re always helping guys with their shooting and giving instruction. We get a lot of guys into trad equipment because that is what we like. There are a lot of big powerful guys we’ve dealt with that can easily shoot a 70 lb bow, but I haven’t seen one yet, that couldn’t shoot a 45 lb bow better – even after 5 years of regular shooting. It’s not that such people don’t exist, it’s just that they aren’t common.

So, for me the issue is one of accuracy vs draw weight. There is a trade off for most. With the new info you have given us on arrow lethality, it seems that a 45 lb bow is now even more capable that ever. Especially when you consider the limbs that can be built today. I would bet there are some newer 45 lb limbs that easily out shoot some 55-60 lb limbs of yesteryear. In fact, I recently “warfed” a bow with new carbon ILF limbs – it’s incredible. Combine this bow with a “lethal” arrow and I would bet it would outperform most 70 lb setups from prior eras. It shoots the same arrow faster than my 55 lb bear recurve from the 60’s.

At this point, the biggest thing I hunt is elk. I would never go in with less than I thought would do the job. However, once I reach that point, I’m not going in with anything more if it affects my accuracy to any significance.

Steve — there are lots of options between 45 and 70, so why fixate on one or the other? It’s not either/or. Sometimes, midground compromise is the way to go. To back one of your points, I often tell the story of being forced some years ago by shoulder injury to drop from 64 to 55 … yet I gained 10fps because the new lighter bow had so much more efficient limbs. If a guy had access to a large weight range of bows of the type he wanted to hunt with, it would be as simple as starting at one extreme or another until you find your heaviest comfort zone. Overbowing is indeed a massive problem, esp. for younger stronger shooters. But the fix requires backing off only enough to attain total comfort and accuracy, not all the way from Z to A. And hey, I’m no longer even sure what we’re “arguing about” here! :lol::wink: Of course, we aren’t. dave

Str8arrow wrote:

Maybe this is the sticky area that is bugging me. I can draw a 70 lb trad bow, no doubt. I shoot a lot and my muscles are in fairly good shape. However, I can not shoot it anywhere near as well as a 55 lb bow. There is a trade off for most people. Draw weight vs accuracy.

I understand what your saying Str8arrow, however let’s also not confuse Bowhunting with target archery.

Jumping up 15lb will effect most peoples accuracy, it is much better to slowly work up to that weight over the next year

With Bowhunting you will take vary few shots and they will usually be at close ranges.

I use to hunt the Islands off of California, and yes I would sometimes have several shots a day ( wish it was still there ) because you could get ten years of Bowhunting experiences in one, that is so; not the norm.

I had to bring extra arrows, it was that good.

70lb longbow, I shot this one at 3 yards on the ground

Then about an hour later shot this one

right after that one shot another one and it ante even noon yet.

On most Bow hunts you will be lucky to get one shot let alone several.

This bow arrow set up was before I ever changed my set up to maximize arrow penetration, I did shoot mostly Zuwickys, because I wanted all the penetration I could get.

One of the reasons I stumbled on the grizzly is I liked the 3-1 ratio, I noticed an immediate increase in penetration completely ignorant of the dynamics of the single bevel.

I am stuck right now with my arrow @ 810 grains with a 28% efoc I can not loud it up any more so my next goal is to get some new shafts and work up a 30%-35% or maybe even a 40% UEFOC arrow.

The fun never stops

AWESOME photo!—>

Kingwouldbe wrote:

David Petersen wrote: And hey, I’m no longer even sure what we’re “arguing about” here! :lol::wink: Of course, we aren’t. dave

I don’t look at this as arguing about anything. It’s more like mulling over all the possible variations of a bow set-up. Noting the advantages and disadvantages of each and then intelligently selecting what each thinks will work best in our own situations.

I don’t worry about anyone here going out ill-prepared to do the job and I don’t think I need to be worried about either. My success rate is very high. I love to hear about what other hunters think is important and put a lot of thought into deciding whether it makes good sense to me. I’ve learned a ton from Ed’s studies and look forward to learning even more from all the experience on this forum.

My average kill distance (over those last 627 animal, is less than 15 yards (14.97 yards, to be exact). I don’t need pinpoint accuracy at those ranges.

I love your precise statistics! As a whitetail hunter in eastern hardwoods, my average shot distance is much shorter than that – not sure exactly how much :wink:, but my longest shot in 40 years has been 23 yards. However, as an elk hunter, I’ve only had one under 15 yards. They just tend to be in more open areas where you’re not exactly sure where they’ll come through. I definitely put a bigger premium on accuracy when I’m after elk.

Thanks Patrick.

The Islands we’re really a special place, you can watch old footage of Howard hill shooting pigs and goats in some of his old moves.

Who would of known that the world would of turned so crazy that they would kill 27,000 head of sheep and let them lie and rot ( the pigs did clean them up as best they could ) then they killed all of the pigs, this was done by the nature conservatory.

I wish I would of took more picks ( was to busy hunting )

This is a huge chocolate ram, most got killed before they could grow big because every one wanted one.

This is my first trip to Santa Cruz Island, mean lean hunting machine

Kingwouldbe wrote:
I understand what your saying Str8arrow, however let’s also not confuse Bowhunting with target archery.

Jumping up 15lb will effect most peoples accuracy, it is much better to slowly work up to that weight over the next year

I think I have a pretty good handle on the difference. It’s just that I’d hate to have to limit my shots to 10 yards if I’ve got a bow that allows me to kill at 20 yards.

I use to hunt the Islands off of California, and yes I would sometimes have several shots a day ( wish it was still there ) because you could get ten years of Bowhunting experiences in one, that is so; not the norm.

Wow, what an amazing looking place. If it had an elk population, I just might have to find a way to hunt it.

I am stuck right now with my arrow @ 810 grains with a 28% efoc I can not loud it up any more so my next goal is to get some new shafts and work up a 30%-35% or maybe even a 40% UEFOC arrow.

With those arrows, I’m betting those pigs wouldn’t stand a chance with even a 55 lb draw from with modern limbs. As for a 40% UEFOC arrow, I wish I knew how to build one. I’d love to shoot it.

You know whats funny, all I did was tune the arrow to the bow and hunt, I did not even own a grain scale or know what my arrow weight was or anything, I made a lot of mistake along the way.

I did put a sharp edge on all of my broadheads, I could of said why better my equipment as it’s always killed just fine.

The truth is there is the best arrow, then theirs the next best arrow, and so forth…

I am at a place now that I want the best arrow I can possible make, it only increases my effective killing.

I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot just listening to every one. I wanted to know what kind of sheep were in those beautiful pictures.

Thanks in advance

Tom

What’s so Refreashing is that in our sport/way of life, is that we pass on this type of information.

Doc. That poem is so true, and it does make my heart hurt, I was able to get my son over there at the vary end, he shot a nice hog as I watched the whole thing across canyon.

Doc. if you don’t mind I would like to post some Island pic’s

I saw this boar on the edge of some oak trees from about a mile away, I thought it was a pony, first shot was quartering in, he did not want to go down so I had to hit him again, he had a block head with nice cutters,60lb widow.

As I left the hog above I came out of the oak trees to see this guy out feeding.

This is the best shot I have ever made, he was running from my hunting buddy and was coming towards me, I had to run up the ridge to where I thought he would come by, as he came by at full speed I had to swing with him then go way out in front of him to lead him and also pick a window to shot him through, hitting them like Howard comes to mind.

Can you say cutters

Tom-Wisconsin wrote: I am really enjoying this thread. I have learned a lot just listening to every one. I wanted to know what kind of sheep were in those beautiful pictures.

Thanks in advance

Tom

Tom that is what it’s about.

Well I think there a moreno sheep that the Spaniards dropped off 3 or 4 hundred years ago along with the pigs, they where there along time before the nature conservatory slaughtered them all.

Can you see my broadhead in the horn?

I think I shot this one after he was eating the dead sheep.

This one we called the shaggy dog.

I glassed this boar from the ridge in the back ground, put a big stock on him.

I shot this boar while I was blood trailing another hog.

A true Traditional Bowhunters paradise

Just watched a show on the discovery channel called “Pig bomb” and how wild boars are spreading every where in the US and in Europe and becomming a real nuisance. Even some where spotted way up here in the Wisconsin North Woods. They say the cause of the increased spread is people planting them in new areas. It seems there behaviors are changing. They once stood and fought to defend their territory but now are running so it is harder to hunt them. They also think the US wild hogs are breeding with imported Russian hogs and so the average weight is increasing and so is the aggressiveness. 😯

Dave,

You look so young then.. Simple smile tells it all……

Thanks Bro

Mark, I had hair then 😀 the cool thing about the Islands was they where game rich, so you went from stock to stock.

Don’t get me wrong though, you had to work hard.

My hunting buddy watched me put the stock on this one

This one was shot at 5 yards in it’s bed.

Sharp delta 2 blade = blood every where.

This is the worst I have ever shot, I missed my first 2 shot over it’s back, it heard the shot but did not know what it was, he was working on a bulb in the grown he would run a little way and come right back to eat the bulb, he never knew I was there until the 3rd shot hit the mark.

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: I know there are no words, David. Daily I grieve the passing of the Africa I knew.

Ed

Ed, I would love to see some pic’s of your time in old Africa, and any where ells for that matter.

Dr. Ed Ashby wrote: Sadly I have but few….

Ed

OMG! I remember very well when that happened, but hadn’t known anyone directly affected by it. Sad in deed!

Ed, That just made me sick, I know how much my pic’s mean to me 😥

I was vary thank full that early on I would take some pic’s but no where near as many as I should of.

I am sorry for being so off topic, but it’s all about bowhunting

What happened in Africa that you speak of? What can I research to find out more about that terrible event?

Richie

Sapcut wrote: What happened in Africa that you speak of? What can I research to find out more about that terrible event?

Richie

Do your research on Mugabe. That’ll give you all the answers you’re looking for.

Ok, a story and then one simple question……….

Have been reading through this and the information posted by Dr Ed, and others is as always some of the best there is, it is and will be information that has and will continue to cause me to look at my gear and the way I hunt and the shots I take.
Now to look down a little different road, and I hope that it is one that is ok to go down…………….
The information that has been gathered by Dr Ed, is and can be a true bonus to the future of responsible bowhunting. I used the word responsible, for a reason, back when I taught bowhunter education, the guy I taught with, good guy, shot a compound, with very light arrows and tiny, tiny heads. I would always say something, but it was a somewhat wasted effort. Deep down he knew, but there were always other things in his schedule, that was more important than practice.
So back on course here. How do we get this back in bowhunting?

Tim