Home › Forums › Campfire Forum › The Good, The Bad, and The Really, REALLY UGLY.
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No, don’t assume I’m discussing my appearance. 😮
I strongly dislike “negative” threads and the only thing I dislike more is being the person starting one. None-the-less it appears I am guilty of such but am doing so in hopes of perhaps opening the door for others to take action, if at all possible, so they or their family’s future bowhunters don’t find themselves in a similar situation.
Some may have it worse, some won’t comprehend it at all, yet the change it has fathered in local bowhunting for deer is not only on my mind more and more each fall, it has become the nemisis my friends and I face that has painted a quite UGLY face on our future bowhunting deer here in Indiana. That is if one exists!
Six or seven years ago, Indiana adopted a “one buck per fall per hunter rule” with a two part purpose. One was to allow more bucks to reach maturity and (more so IMHO) attempt to encourage more to shoot more antlerless deer to reduce the herd.
Not only was it a change everyone I knew welcomed, it has worked tremendously……at least as far as producing opportunities at a larger buck, both in physical size and inches of antlers. One doubting this only needs to spend a few hours opening day of firearms season come mid November or take the time to attend the Indiana Deer Classic held each year.
SOUNDS great, IS great and I do hope to someday arrow that “big ol hoss buck of a lifetime” myself some day. Maybe.
They say “all dark clouds have a silver lining” yet this silver cloud of more trophy bucks has a very, very dark, ugly, and in some cases dangerous snake of a lining rearing it’s ravenous head and biting ethical bowhunters and kindly land owners right square in the keister!
Indiana is more and more being advertised in articles and tv hunting shows as the “sleeper state” for a big “scoring” buck. Sandwiched between Illinois and Ohio those of us hunting here for decades have known this for a long time.
If you had a place not bombarded by lots of hunters and could let the young ones walk, you WOULD get a chance at bigger bucks in only a few short years.
It’s not that “Buckmaster” sized bucks are everywhere now but their numbers are growing as well as sightings, stories and the NUMBER of those targeting ONLY those bucks is growing faster than I had thought possible.
STILL, this is all well and good! Right? WRONG!
The opportunity to find and hunt a big buck here is not increasing, UNLESS you are willing to also contend with your stands stolen, ground blinds destroyed, fist fights and your life, children and home threatened by those more than willing to do anything and everything to dissuade you from LEGALLY hunting WITH permission in the area where one has repeatedly been sighted.
These are not examples thrown at you at random. Each and every one I and a friend have personally had, had threatened, and often enough such are not taken as “idle” threats.
Car windows broken, tires slashed, dents kicked in my vehicle, license plate stolen, garage broken into and trashed, items stolen, HOME broken into (twice) deer mounts destroyed or stolen, gut piles dumped in your yard, threatening phone calls to your children, lie to the land owner about you, report you to the CO as a poacher, report you to the police for having “illegal drugs”. Sure, they can check all they want but ANNOYING?……take my word for it.
EACH and EVERY example above is a past experience for us. They don’t care and will stop at nothing. They band together in packs of wild animals and WILL cut your hunting’s achilles tendon.
The land owner who kindly allows you to hunt tires of it all, doesn’t know who to believe therefore they “allow” no one to hunt. Perfect for those of which I speak. Only those respecting the land owner’s rights will stay out. That is you and me….not them.
You can call the police or the CO, report their actions too. Know how many of such calls they get? Hundreds. Vandalizim of your home or car? You have insurance right? That’s as far as it will go. Threats to harm you? Got proof?Sorry.
See who tore up your car? Well, they said they didn’t and have friends who say they weren’t in this county.You may catch a few, who in turn get their wrists slapped and off they go continuing there 12 month a year, night shining, video taping, tresspassing, harrassing and destroying ways……all in the “GOOD NAME” of their “holy grail” in whitetail hunting so they can have the reputation amongst their “peers” as “super deer hunter”.
AM I ON MY SOAP BOX!?! DA** RIGHT I AM! 👿 I ALMOST WISH WHITETAIL DID NOT HAVE ANTLERS at this point.
Today is the 15th DAY of bow season here. To date, two of us have had ground blinds destroyed and tree stands put up over them, “hunters” walking through the bedding grounds, through our shooting lane (purposely) “coming out to make sure no one was trespassing” and had the GALL to ASK ME TO SEE MY HUNTING LICENSE!
My buddy don’t DARE leave a tree stand up. It wont last one night he is at work.
So what do I DO? and my buddy? What options do we have? Fight this fight on and on, non stop or move out and attempt to find ANY PLACE we can peacefully hunt, once again, like we have over and over and over. If I want to hunt peacefully, I find something that don’t have but about 4 deer in it.
Personally I am down to one place with two, one acres patches of woods and some fence rows showing travel and one 8.5 acre woods but trouble is on the horizon there.
Another “hunter” is on the adjoining property, does NOT have permission to hunt in or be on where I do have and already he wants to argue that I am “interfereing” with his hunting. His woods is TRIPLE the size of where I am and the property is triple size as well. I don’t even know where he HAS stands! I know dang well why he is upset. Because for years previously he WAS hunting this land I am now on ….without permission, and coming in from behind.
There is no “cure”, there is no “solution”….but one.
As much as I HATE the thought of it becoming the standard in today’s hunting, LEASE OR BUY YOUR HUNTING GROUND and GET permission, if leased, to be able to press charges legally against trespassers.
If my personal financial/job situation was even stable, which it is not due to health issues, I’d finance one and live on it in a mobile home.
I’m more than tired. I’m disgusted and discouraged, and every year by long time friend and I discuss..is it really worth it anymore? Will we even try next year? There is indeed a point where the CONS over ride the PROS even in what you have loved doing all your life.
Take heed, my friends. If capable, take action. Make a goal of getting this done and done SOON!
Should you live in a state not yet inflicted with such actions, or have enough public land in your area where it’s not crowded, you are probably expressing disbelief such exists. It does, it’s growing, and it’s a death toll for those of us who always honored someone else’s land and hunting area out of mutual respect for such.
Some say the “boom” times are here for deer hunting. I for one say those times are dead, buried and rotting in the ground.
I sincerely hope, with all my soul, I am the ONLY one in this situation……but I know I’m not.
I will continue and hunt in spite of the odds. I may even luck (dumb?) into a nice buck this year but “my way” of finding a nice buck and hunting HIM is long gone so now it’s less skill, and mostly luck. Or should I say ALL?
God Bless,
Steve Sr. -
Steve… I wish you the best of luck in resolving your personal situation in this. It is sad. Your hunts may require a little more of a roadtrip. Do some research on available places to hunt. Many states like my home state rent cabins on state forest lands during the hunting seasons. Sure it public land, but it puts everyone on equal ground, so to speak. I have found, many times I have whole areas to hunt all to myself during bow season. I’ve also had the opportunity to hunt “Bow Only” and QDM areas, which tend to draw the “better” hunters of good character, if you know what I mean. Or simply, you may need to join a private club.
Good luck to you & your partner.
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I’ve been saying for a long time that I think deer hunting in Illinois would be a lot better if the largest buck in the state was a 90-inch 8-pointer.
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Steve,
I live in central In. and hunt alot in western In at my brother’s. We have encountered some, but not all of your problems–wow some are extreme. But it is getting worse each year.I do want to address the one buck issue. I personally think it hurts only the bowhunter who also might hunt with shotgun or muzzleloader. I personally hunt all season long with my longbow. My son and brother pick up the steel when those seasons arrive.
I think that an antler restriction would have been a much better choice for a new reg. six years ago. I will tell you a story that exemplifies my position, I hope.
I have a lifetime license so I don’t have to run to Wal Mart or some such vendor to buy my licenses. In 2005 I had occassion to be in Wal Mart on a Friday eve. It just so happened that it was the day before the firearms season opened. There was some sort of line formed way back in the store as I made my way to find some scent. I thought they were giveing flu shots. As I made my way back to sporting goods I saw that it was a line to buy firearms licenses. I could not believe it. It was never that way in the 80’s and 90’s when I had to buy each license.
I was curious so I counted the people in line when I left sporting goods. 105 people!!!!!! I would ask you or anyone else—how many of those Johnny come lateleys are going to selectively pick out a mature ( say 8 pt. or better ) buck the next morning? Having been to dozens of check in stations over my 30 years of deer huntin my answer would be zero out of those 105. Also, how many had actually patterned their guns? My opinion is if they waited till the last night to buy their license the answer would be very few.
Add this thought to the mix. How many Wal Marts are there all over In. that where having a repeat of the one in Kokomo?
Where I am coming from is if we had an antler restriction instead of a one buck rule we would have many more mature deer running around now after six years than we do.
I realize I did not address your problems as such I guess I just wanted to vent a little over the one buck rule.
Good luck to you and I hope things get better for you around home without haveing to lease. We are holding off on that at this time too.
Nick -
Steve I cannot imagine that! If I had to contend with such circumstances I would not hunt. If I did hunt under those circumstances I would end up in jail for sure. I would carry a cell phone and digital camera and call the Sheriff every time I had an encounter. I would also take pictures of everything every time. I would document on paper every time and demand a report be made by the Sheriff’s dept and Game and Fish. I would see if Indiana has a hunter protection law and go see the DA or Prosecutor in your county. I would offer to complete an affidavit on each occasion along with photo documentation of any vehicles I had seen in the area with a Vehicle license snapshot of each. I would let someone know where I was and hunt with a reliable partner. Actually I would move!
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An excellent reply, Nick, and includes a subject I’ve thought on and discussed with others.
You are 100 percent correct that a lot don’t care WHAT buck they shoot but from 15 years of running a deer buthering business/taxidermy/check station I was happy with any change.
I kept records, of course, through the years and of the over 300 I would butcher annually 70-80 percent AVERAGE were antlered bucks.
Not good in anyone’s book.
The loss of being able to shoot TWO bucks per fall was the gain IMHO. I preached each and every season to those repeatedly taking two bucks (regardless of size) yet sometimes but not always, holding out for a “bigger” buck the second tag. While a good many of them didn’t fill the second tag honestly looking for a wall hanger after taking one, way too many did. However, many of those looking for a wall hanger STILL hold out and will go “buckless” or at least the one they do take out is still older than the first dink they would take on the two buck season before they held out previously.
My only concern on the antler restrictions is that while the ethical half of the hunters willing and able to wait for such recognition before shooting, are quite probably the ones already holding out, at least to some extent.
While it would work fine, maybe even better for bow season, the antler restriction would result in a lot of deer bucks left to rot in the field. So we don’t get bumped for “non-archery” discussions, Ill share more on that via a PM later.
But, back on course. Regardless of the restrictions the state puts on bucks, those who are unethically using extremes to get that “big buck” are growing in number, getting braver, and many have leap frogged over “unethically” and went straight to “illegally”.
I’ve personally seen some of these same hunter’s with wives checking in 140-150 class bucks that ‘his wife shot this morning” so he can continue to hunt on the odds he can find a bigger one. This is not conjecture. I know the wife from where she works. She will admit, in confidence what is going on and says the “other hunters are doing the same”, knows it’s illegal but it’s such a small thing to them that she will willingly admit it, in public without authorities around. Their children have “youth permits”, one tag fits all.
They have even gotten around the “illegal to spot light deer at night with a firearm in the car”. Two cars. One shining, one shooting. The CO has to ACTUALLY SEE THEM SHOOT ONE to be able to do anything about it.
Don’t have permission to hunt there? Season isn’t in till half hour before daylight? No problem. Centerfire bullet hole? Naaaa, I shoot a handgun chambered in 308. (legal during season in a handgun, not in a rifle…..sigh)
It all comes back to my warning and advice for those able and willing. YOUR rights are non existant to these people. Their numbers are growing. Others see them getting by with it successfully therefore, with little or no risk evident, they join in. Some farmers just want them shot, any way, any time, any method and will say nothing.
I actually know a family that is now teaching this to their kids and take them along “shining for deer”.
This is so common, so “accepted” by so many that I cannot even find it interesting enough to go look at a big buck reported taken………unless I personally know the hunter.
I’m done. Enough ranting and it too easily goes into firearm season that is a disaster in itself.
I apologize for those offended but if only ONE of those reading this procures, in some way, a place for them and their family’s to hunt and have control for decades to come………I feel it worth your being offended.
Here I pray I am wrong but feel it will matter little if, God Willing, I am still physically able to hunt in five years. The choice will be already made for me.
My options to find and obtain a long time place to ethically hunt are long gone with the place I had for 32 years (oh yes, I saw this coming). For the first time in my life I am halfway content that neither of my son’s found an interest.
I couldn’t help them.
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Hiram?
You have actually hit the “nail on the head” so to speak with
“Steve I cannot imagine that! If I had to contend with such circumstances I would not hunt”That is exactly what is happening.
I cannot count the number of good resposible hunters that I know that no longer hunt for just this reason. This is exactly the goal of these people. In fact, I know more that have quit than still hunt!!!!!!
Hunt somewhere else, move away, stop hunting…….die……we don’t care just stay out of our way.
S.Sr.
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Look on the bright side, at least you don’t have dog hunting. Down south here as soon as archery season is over, the dog hunters come out. I have a 50 acre spread that I own primarily to raise my kids in the country and hunt on. Come opening day of gun season, the road hunters dump their dogs out on my property and chase the deer off. That’s it for my season. Private land doesn’t matter. And to boot… the insurance lobby has gotten the DNR to change the laws in NC to reduce the archery season. The plan is that within 2 years there will be no primitive season. Just open season.
Makes you reconsider high fences, doesn’t it? Not to keep the deer in specifically, just to keep other stuff out. Seriously, I’ve been thinking about it….:oops:
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Steve,
It pains me to see hunting headed down that road. It’s bad news. I hope you can beat the “system” as it is. Good luck.
Steve Graf,
Here in Montana, we have a leash law that states that dogs must be leashed or contained so they cannot run at large. If people catch dogs running deer here, it’s open season on the dogs. And I know people that have shot dogs that were running at large. I wouldn’t get along down south very well, I don’t think. Anyway, I would suggest at least a 4-5′ fence if you do go to fencing your property. I build fences for a living, and deer can clear 5′ fence fairly easily if they know it’s there. Depending what kind of dogs are used, perhaps you won’t get fence jumpers. Good luck as well.
Michael.
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My great uncle had a buffalo fence becuase he used to raise buffalos in northern sascatewan(I can never spell that) and it was high enough(unintentionally) that a calf moose could not get over but the full grown ones could! That fence was 9 feet tall!! That is very impressive for a animal of that size to be able to leap that high, but I suppose a 9 foot fence would be like a 5 foot fence for a whitetail!
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I really don’t want to beat a dead horse and I know that there are bad apples in every sub-culture no matter what it is, but could the current crop of antler and success at any cost obsessed “hunters” simply be the by product of all the marketing hype and “outdoor icons” seen on a daily basis? Seems like every other “serious hunter” around here is angling for a pro-staff position with the local bow shops when 10 years ago if you had said a buck going about 170 was seen everyone would assume you were talking about how much it weighed. Just thinkin out loud.
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I dont think so johnny, because in my area we have problems too, and the biggest buck in my hunting area is a 110 class buck!? The problems are in result of them wanting meat very badly. The locals in the area are the culprit and they drive, that is the only way they hunt. They are extremely good at it to. The will drive with shotguns during muzzleloader season and things like that. This is on public land, they do it because they live on the meat! I suppose they are seriously in it for the meat, but they do it on there own terms!? I am not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing but I really can not judge them for doing whatever it takes for there family to survive.
On another note, I know that sometimes tree markings that border public land are more often than not acurate, alot of times you will see blue paint and then fifty more yards beyond the blue paint is the state paint line? Of course I like to stay with the blue paint, but it does make me question who is actually right? Heck one fellow that caught me on his property that was not marked said that DNR scraped off his marks? That sounds fishy to me, I just simply appologized and asked where the property mark was! I know that when I trek into public land I do not expect to wander into private property like I did that day without knowing it, I know if I owned property bordering public land I would have it marked! But that sounds not at all the case in Steve Sr.’s case!? I personally hate private property for the boundary reasons. I hate not being able to follow that buck over the fence, and it always seems like the grass is greener on the other side. Even small game likes the other side of the fence better. I just prefer my 55000 acres of state forest to roam around in, that ot to keep me out of trouble!:wink:
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It saddens me to to hear these things, though my own state has similar problems and even if you join a private club the membership has its own politics with a certain amount or jockeying and posturing if not outright domintating the prime areas of the property. Though I have not been personally threatened it has happened to people I know. I have mostly hunted public land and was fortunate to have access through private land that put me at least 2 miles from any access point. That was a sweet place. Sigh. But even so we had a round or 2 with criminals poaching by driving deer during squirrel season claiming to be squirrel hunting. The game warden came out and said these were hardened criminals and if saw them we should leave and call him so we did. Guess he finally caught them.
Like Hiram said document and record. NC has a harrassment law that was intended to protect against the Antis, I bet Indiana has one too. Harrassment is harrassment no matter what the source is. Shame it is other hunters, if you can call these hunters. These laws are designed to protect the hunter while engaging in lawful activity. I would insist that you are being harrassed while engaged in a lawful activity and put the responsibility on Law Enforcement. I would call the District Attorney’s office to find out if such a law exists in your state and if so why isn’t it being enforced. All of this harrassment is not helping your health issues Steve, you need to take care of yourself first. Good luck wit hthis and I hope you can find a peaceful hunt. -
Thanks all.
Snuffornot. These laws do exist here. Have for as long as I can recall.
ANY call on ANYTHING hunting gets rerouted to the Conservation Officer. I think we have TWO? for a couple counties. At one point we acutally kept one a few years and I got to know him well enough that he gave me his cell number.
That worked about half the time. He was usually 50 miles away or in the middle of some lake checking fishing licenses. IMMEDIATE help from a CO is rare, no……wait, Ive never gotten immediate help.
I once sat and watched a guy shoot FOUR does one morning when we had an opening weekend of gun season where only bucks were shot. I heard over 50 shots that morning from him and his buddies. I called the County to get ahold of a CO and that I had a poacher IN SIGHT. TWO DAYS LATER, I got a call.
Yesterday AM I found a fork horn whitetail dead from a liver shot barely into my hunting area. Checking around the block, no vehicles. I called County and reported a deer down and feared it would be left to rot, asking for assistance to contact the owner of the property and finding out who was hunting.
OK, a “minor” thing to the authorities. By 4PM. No calls. I looked up the land owner myself online, called him, left a message. No calls. Before hunting last night, I circled the block again, and found a vehicle parked with a four wheeler on the back and left a note on his wiper that if he or a buddy shot a forky and didn’t find it to please call me.
End result was a recovered lil buck and a thankful pair of hunters but in addition to the rash of BS going on, small buck “mistakenly” shot are often left to rot, untagged and off these other misfits go in search of a bigger one if they don’t have “extra” tags. “There are plenty others out there.”
HAPPILY this pair was not like that.:D A little PR work for the old man which in these times of illegal infiltration cannot be viewed as anything but a good thing. Watch each others backs.
Oh yes, the conservation officer? No call, nothing. Not even to make sure a buck was tagged and not left to rot, illegal in every state I know of. No call to find out where it was, no call to find out land owner’s name, no call to get any vehicle descriptions or license plate. Not even a call with advice on what information to get for him to check later.
Nothing.
Rare occurance? Nope, Sorry.
In 15 years of other such stories of harrassment in my shop the common reply to calling the CO or County was “WHY? They wont show up for hours or sometimes DAYS”
I know where the DISTRICT C.O. office is and am seriously thinking of putting a patition together with questions of:
“WHAT SHOULD WE DO IF OR WHEN:” questions, have several hunters sign it, enclose a stamped envelope and wait.
Want to bet on even GETTING a reply? I won’t, and if I do? Maybe by spring.:(
On a GOOD NOTE, it is 5:20 AM, North wind, a bit too still for my preference, 5 MPH, mostly cloudy, 31 degrees dropping to 26 at sunrise in 2.5 hours and picking up a buddy to drop off on the way hunting because (get this) even with WRITTEN Permission he has to be dropped off and picked up in hopes the neighbors (in a farm county!!!) don’t whine at the land owner for allowing some 60 year old man with a longbow in there “butchering bambi”. 🙄
I wish I did’t love my sons so much sometimes.
My sister lives in SW Montana, has an entire basement “free for the taking” and offered to “baby brother”. Hmmmmmm.
I’ve lived within 20 miles of where I sit typing this message to all of you, since birth. You know the old saying. “A nice place to VISIT but………..:shock:” Had I a means of setting enough back to “come home” a couple months a year…..double hummm!!!
Go GET EM, Guys n Gals! THE time is almost here! *Rut! Rut!* I think my neck is starting to swell a bit.:?
God Bless!!
Steve Sr.P.S. Ill do a gramatical and typo check later. It’s TOO EARLY!! 😀
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Steve,
Been hunting at my brother’s all week end. I did get a nice doe this AM with my longbow. I feel blessed.I read and re-read your reply to my last post. I can not find one thing I disagree with. You are spot on. I apologize for my first rant on the one buck rule. And I do agree that was for the good–just not as good as an antler restriction would have been, IMO.
You did bring up some interesting thoughts on the Conservation Officer thing. I have had good dealings with them for the most part. I think WE WOULD ALL AGREE that there are far too few of them. Less than one per county statewide, I have heard. And of course, like all professions, there are the good, the bad and the ugly, to borrow a phrase. One CO in a county and mabey 50-100 sherrifs deputies? Not a good balance.
All that said,and I know I am preaching to the choir here, but we have to police ourselves in regards to hunting regs. I will admit that when we try and receive no communication back in a timely manner it becomes frustrating and beyond.
The more members we can recruit in PBS and Compton is a large step in the right direction. I am a regular member of PBS and I am on the Board of Directors of Compton—AND I AM PROUD OF BOTH THESE MEMBERSHIPS.
God speed,
Nick -
i do think it is time to pack some heat, just for protection. I don’t konw the laws in IL but here in Colorado we have the make my day law which allows you to protect yourself in your home or anytime you feel thretened. this is not a threat or an encouragement to hurt someone, but I will stop at nothen to protect my family.
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