It’s not about crossbows, or bows at all, I don’t think. It’s just that a large percentage of people are just sick individuals.

Here’s an example:

Broadhead (on this forum) and I were turkey hunting last year. On the drive back to the hunting club, we came across five tiny puppies that had been left in an intersection of a rural road. They were covered in fleas and fire ant bites. Surely, within a day or two they would have all died. Some unbelievable evil person didn’t want to take care of them and just threw them in the road to die.

We couldn’t let that happen so we rounded them all up and took them back to camp. We bathed them and fed them and found a home nearby that would take three of them. I took the other two back to N GA and found homes for them.

The owner that took in the three puppies lives on a rural dirt road and lets his dogs just lay around the yard. I do not agree with this, but these dogs never went more than fifty yards from the house. They never ran deer or bothered anyone.

Six months later, Broadhead was coming out of the woods from deer hunting and found them both laying dead in a ditch. They had both been shot. Later, one of the owner’s beagles came home with a bullet through a leg that had to be amputated.

We sure thought those puppies were home free and felt great about saving them, until they ran into another human that was just pure evil. Makes you think.

Maybe they should require some sort of IQ test before being allowed to purchase!

I don’t see how that it would be possible to be an accident!

~Tony

Dave;

I am beginning to think people are so encouraged to be selfish at all cost most recently that we are now generating more and more people who have no empathy and remorse for doing something like this. I noticed one of the local Denver stations carried it saying that the arrow was from a but looked to me from the video I was thinking either real small bow for a kid or a crossbow. The other local station then did say it came from a crossbow so the media can sometimes be the big misleader.

As others have said, this isn’t an x-gun issue, it’s a symptom of broader social and societal problems that I’m not even going to try to go into. Last week our local paper ran an article on a number of decapitated dogs left dumped in a field. What motivates people to decapitate domestic pets? Zero degrees of empathy is a scary situation.

I think what makes it at least a x-bow issue, and potentially a bow issue, is that the silence of these weapons allows folks to discharge them in built up up areas and not attract attention to themselves. I think people will get concerned about that.

ausjim wrote: I think what makes it at least a x-bow issue, and potentially a bow issue, is that the silence of these weapons allows folks to discharge them in built up up areas and not attract attention to themselves. I think people will get concerned about that.

Somebody recently was arrested near me for microwaving a puppy to death. I sure hope people don’t start complaining about me owning a microwave.

Sadly, your point is probably correct as this is the same issue we face here with gun control. Either way, it’s not the weapon that commits the act, but the person behind it, whether it be microwave or assault rifle.

ALCON,

Stories like this are going to be everywhere and we all have one (unfortunately). This is even more true on a slow news day when no one is killed, raped, blown up, and when there are no “juicy bits” of racism, sexism, or some other “ism” the press loves so much. Here is my issue, IMHO: we are not policing ourselves, and we are busy discussing how to further divide ourselves (gun, bow, crossbow, spear, etc) giving the antis a perfect chance to “divide and conquer”.

Here is a bit from my neck of the woods:

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101120/NEWS/11200303

Now, Dave, I have to ask you, only because you posted the thread. I am not singling you out or any other such nonsense. If it were the same situation that you wrote about, or especially the one in your link, but the weapon had been a rifle, or spear, or [FSM forbid] a longbow, would it have been any different? How would you have felt if it were a nice POC shaft with turkey feathers and a custom cresting? How would the puppy have felt? Would you still have posted it? Who is in the wrong here? I despise poaching even more than I despise PETA. I don’t think laws are anywhere harsh enough when dealing with them. But first and foremost, this person (in your elk example) should be identified as a POACHER and not a ______________ HUNTER (fill the blank in yourself, x-bow, rifle, hand grenade, it don’t matter. The weapon choice does not a poacher make). Second, as is the reply to the link I posted here, the hunter (in my case) was absolutely right, and the people feeding the wild animals were actually breaking the law. But is that what got reported? This was a bowhunter (again, in my example) who probably used a compound. Even if he used a crossbow, I would be right there by his side defending him for making a LEGAL and ETHICAL kill and congratulating him on his trophy. I would be there condemning the people who fed this animal and the idiot press who mis-represented the situation. I would do this with no regard for what this hunter was hunting with. It is a fellow hunter who hunts legally and ethically (giving the benefit of the doubt). When we start doing the “look at those __________ hunters (again, fill in the blank with the flavor of the week, x-bow, compound, etc), we open all of hunting up to the antis and if they have their way, we ALL will lose, animals included.

Again, your example was of a POACHER and the article about a sadistic IDIOT. I couldn’t care what they had in their hands. A kitchen knife would have been just as bad. Again, IMHO, we need to distance ourselves from this type of scum. They are not x-bow hunter or gun hunters or any kind of hunters. They are poachers and scumbags and should be called as such. Second, we need to police our own ranks and set some real priorities. I didn’t reply to the “canned-hunt” thread again as beating dead horses only spreads germs, but I am forced to bring it up in example. The statement was made” If we stepped up as a group and condemned canned hunts as we know we should have we would be in a much different position. Now we’ve just shown the nonhunters that we can’t manage ourselves so someone else will.” Well I must humbly disagree. I would take a well-managed preserve (Africa comes to mind, along with many “fenceless” ranches that are simply the only watering holes in a 100 square mile radius, so every animal there will eventually come) over ANY poacher and any sadistic lunatic any day. We have bigger fish to fry. We need to remove ourselves from association with these “people” and we need to support those who follow ethics and reason, no matter what they hunt with or even if they don’t hunt. Well, I’m off to take my lisinopril, thank you very much. Again, IMHO… Be well.

Alex

👿

Wexbow wrote: What motivates people to decapitate domestic pets? Zero degrees of empathy is a scary situation.

Sorry, dead horse, but the lisinopril hasn’t kicked in yet…

Wex, it’s worse yet. Around me about a year or two ago the owner of an animal “shelter” was being investigated for cruelty. Turns out it was more a puppy mill than a shelter. By the time investigators went in, this degenerate had shot all the dogs he had “sheltered” there. Over 20 if memory serves. Pretty bad, right? But here’s the kicker… He faced no charges. Turns out that you are able to care for, or dispose of, domestic pets in any way you see fit (thank you very much Old Yeller). There was some uproar over lack of laws, etc, but then there was a plane crash or multiple homicides or some other junk and it was all forgotten. Wild Turkey Federation is going on in our world these days? I just can’t imagine. Be well.

Alex

😕

OK, really I promise I will stop. I hope that was lisinopril I took. Small diamond-shaped blue pill. Funny, I don’t feel my BP going down…

Anyway, in my first reply, I mentioned needing to police ourselves before we should even start to think about going after “canned-hunts”, etc, here is a classic example:

http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/news/stagecoach-residents-save-hurt-deer-start-bow-hunting-petition/article_be9564f4-8f6e-5718-be13-afb299561256.html

Be well.

Alex

😳

ausjim wrote: I think what makes it at least a x-bow issue, and potentially a bow issue, is that the silence of these weapons allows folks to discharge them in built up up areas and not attract attention to themselves. I think people will get concerned about that.

Agreed! Very common out here for “pest” control, be it a coyote or unwanted neighbor’s dog or cat!!

I guess I be dense as a 2×4 but I can’t see what Old Yeller has to do with this.

In general I don’ t buy into the world is getting sicker stuff. We’ re all basically %$$!house crazy in a world that makes no sense. It’ s incredible it’ s not worse! Some fraction of the 7 billion of us can’ t handle it and act out and it’ us all over the world in a minute. I think the 20 th century broke some “sick” records too.

lyagooshka wrote: OK, really I promise I will stop. I hope that was lisinopril I took. Small diamond-shaped blue pill. Funny, I don’t feel my BP going down…

Anyway, in my first reply, I mentioned needing to police ourselves before we should even start to think about going after “canned-hunts”, etc, here is a classic example:

http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/news/stagecoach-residents-save-hurt-deer-start-bow-hunting-petition/article_be9564f4-8f6e-5718-be13-afb299561256.html

Be well.

Alex

😳

I don’t know what’s diamond shaped, but lisinopril is round and tan in color. 😀

Etter, no, mine looked like this…

😆 😆 😆

That’s my attempt at humor in an otherwise gut-wrentching discussion. Let me know when you hear about BBI.

R2: yet another pathetic attemp to include some jabs at those I am not fond of (the dang rat place in this case, at least I think it was Disney). I was saying this coward shot the dogs he had in the manner Old Yeller was put down. Sorry, bad attempt.

Be well.

Alex

😛

I agree with Paleo, same $*&%#@@, more of us more of it, modern communications makes us more aware of it. Let the bearer of which weapon cast the first stone! I know we deal primarily with archery but we’re all in this world together.

Paleo and Ralph, you’re probably right. But I think the urbanisation of our population is having two effects on our relationship with animals – we’re humanising pets and yet totally detached from meat production. I think this has the effect of creating crazy peta types and over the top animal welfare activists (including anti-hunters) on one hand and unfeeling cruel thugs on the other that will microwave cats, put x-gun darts in puppies and decapitate dogs as illustrated above.

Alex, the following is kind of directed at your argument of poachers v hunters, hunters having to stick together etc.

Let me start by acknowledging I don’t know anything about the hunting laws where most of you guys are from. Where I am from, if you’re on land you’re legally allowed to hunt on, public or private, any dog is fair game. If a dog is not on it’s owners property or not under the control of it’s owner, it is, for the purposes of hunting or trapping, feral. As far as I am aware, there are no laws here precluding young feral animals from being killed. So in Dave’s original post, there would be wide scope here for that to have been an entirely legal activity. The xbowman who fired at the puppy could have been engaged in entirely legal hunting.

My little peanut brain tells me that to try and effectively legislate 100% ethical conduct in an activity as varied and subjective as hunting would result in some very restrictive legislation.

So, keeping those things in mind, I would suggest that it is entirely up to those of us who call ourselves (ethical) hunters to condemn activities that may in fact be legal, but we find to be unethical. Remembering that if we find it unethical, surely so do the majority of the folks who are not hunters. If we don’t regulate our own ethical conduct, the fallout will be that non-hunting majority further restricting our freedom to hunt with legislation attempting to regulate our ethics for us.

In short, if you’re fighting for your life, the enemy of your enemy may very well be your friend. But if you’re fighting for what’s right, that is simply not enough.

All in my humble opinion.

ausjim wrote: …to try and effectively legislate 100% ethical conduct in an activity as varied and subjective as hunting would result in some very restrictive legislation.

Jim, well put. I couldn’t agree more. If you look at some threads here on TBM even, you will see that “ethics” can be a bit like “common sense”. a) if it’s so common, why is there so little of it, and b) mine may not be the same as yours, yet somehow we both are right. But there are things that no one in their right mind (another subjective phrase, but something that I really feel should be required to get a hunting license) would do. Taking long shots we have no business taking, shooting an animal outside the vitals on purpose to see them suffer, putting any animal in a microwave, etc. First thing, of course, is “legal”. I you are breaking the law, you are already not ethical, so there is no need to continue. In Dave’s example, the poacher was poaching, ergo, not doing something legal. Now your argument (IMHO) is 100% right. Not all things legal are ethical, but I cannot think of anything that is ethical but not legal (let’s leave the “inhaling” argument for another thread and just focus that statement on hunting).

ausjim wrote: …So, keeping those things in mind, I would suggest that it is entirely up to those of us who call ourselves (ethical) hunters to condemn activities that may in fact be legal, but we find to be unethical. Remembering that if we find it unethical, surely so do the majority of the folks who are not hunters.

Again, well put, but my whole argument was the title of the thread “X-Bow…” I don’t think it would have been any “better” had it been a rifle, or kitchen knife, or primitive arrow with obsidian tip and goose feathers wrapped in sinew and crested with natural organic dyes. Point is, it’s not the weapon, it’s the hunter. Look at the link I put on my last post (the one with the wounded deer). Do you think if those people saw me in the woods with my longbow, homemade aluminum arrows and copy of TBM in my pocket, that they would differentiate me from the person who put that arrow in that deer (my guess by the type of arrow is a compound and probably at well beyond his/her optimal range)?

I know this is a “Traditional” forum, and I love that. I don’t want to change that or convert it to accept anything but longbows, recurves and other selfbows, etc that don’t have/use a trigger device (let’s remember the crossbow is over a thousand years old). And I really don’t want to get away from some of the “trash talking” and stories about “the compound guys looked at me like I was nuts, but by the end…” That’s really fun. I look at the whole thing like the Army/Navy game (Go Army! Beat Navy! BTW). It’s a fun rivalry, but I see someone pointing a weapon at my brothers and sisters in blue, I will end them or die trying. With some exception, the antis aren’t quite that bad, but the “weapon” is the anti-hunting (of all types) legislation not based in any fact, and the “end them” is figurative for lend my support to ensure that safe/ethical hunters can practice their craft (safely and ethically) for years to come, regardless of the weapon they choose.

OK, long story short (too late, I know) the real point I was trying to make is that the weapon in not the culprit, it is the person, and that we should not divide ourselves along those lines except in the “fun little rivalries” that brothers and sisters share. Hope that makes some sense. Be well.

Alex

🙂

Wexbow wrote: Paleo and Ralph, you’re probably right. But I think the urbanisation of our population is having two effects on our relationship with animals – we’re humanising pets and yet totally detached from meat production. I think this has the effect of creating crazy peta types and over the top animal welfare activists (including anti-hunters) on one hand and unfeeling cruel thugs on the other that will microwave cats, put x-gun darts in puppies and decapitate dogs as illustrated above.

Wex – your comment touched a nerve:) I don’ t hate animals of course, but pretty much believe they belong in barns, not the house…my wife has 2 cats, one a nasty puker that I’ d like to ” take for a ride”, but they are like kids to her. I joke she’ s like a shark with her little remoras always near her. Animals have somehow become human around here for sure 😀

Alex, from reading lots of old posts (which I do a lot of), I think you and I are often on the same page. I agree with the principle that you and Etter and probably others have put forward, that a tool is just that. It is the person wielding it that makes a good or bad choice. And I agree with your premise that if this had been a beautiful hand crafted primitive arrow shot out of a lovingly worked self bow, it would have been no better. But it wasn’t. It was a xbow bolt.

I think there is more to this kind of debate than a tool is a tool. The first time I ever went into a big, commercial outdoors store in the US (I won’t name names, but it starts with a b and rhymes with asspro) I will never forget walking into the archery section and seeing a xbow on display. This thing was all black, covered in picatinny rails, had a scope, laser sight and tactical foregrip mounted. It looked a lot like any modern assault rifle. At the time I thought “what kind of person needs all that to kill something”. Obviously, the answer to that is no one, it is not a matter of need, it is a matter of want. So the question ought to be “what kind of person wants to have all that”.

I think the answer to that question is a group of people from within which you will find the subgroup of people that would shoot a puppy in the hip, or a deer in the head with a crap target point (not always maliciously either, ignorance and negligence are probably a more prevalent cause). Further to that I suspect the more militarized or hyped etc a weapon is, the higher percentage that subgroup will make up of the total. I am sure that there are jerks in the traditional scene as well, but I suspect they are of a much smaller proportion of our group. For the group of microwave owners, it’s probably an even smaller proportion again.

I’m not sure exactly what that all means, but I think it warrants more thought and can not be simply swept away by “a weapon is just a tool”. I’m not ready to jump all in with Dave and hate xbows either. But my slow, ponderous, near-sighted brain tells me there is something to this.

Anyway, that’s all just one idiots opinion 🙂 Peace out, I have some broadheads to sharpen 🙂

AT PRESENT , I stand with ausijim ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,he Has the option of looking from the OUTSIDE ,,,,,,,,,,,,WHEREAS WE , FROM THE U.S. tend to be more one sided or NARROW MINDED . iF I’M WRONG , SOMEBODY DELETE ME ,,,,,,,,,,,,,BUT TO THOSE DOIN’ THE DELETIN’ ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT ?

aIN’T LOOKING FOR A FIGHT OR ARGUEMENT . iT’S JUST PRACTICAL SENSE …

I don’t care one ounce for c-pounds or x-bows . I have used them and despise them . But , if I run into a hunter with one I ain’t gonna try to shame him for his choice of ”HUNTING ARM”,,,,,,,not weapon . Weapons are tools used between men or countries . Folks in pursuit of wildlifedo not use weapons ,,, but , rather , SPORTING ARMS ,,,,be it rimfire , center fire or archery .

Like has been said and clearly implied before ,,,WE AS HUNTERS HAD BETTER STICK TOGETHER AND STAND UP FOR EACH OTHER OR BE WIPED OUT BY THE non-hunting , ignorant .

Jim,

Just wanted to let you know that I almost fell off my couch when I read: “…it starts with a b and rhymes with asspro”. That was hilarious. It’s wrong (or right) on so many levels. Anyway, I agree with you. I was playing devil’s advocate, poking the skunk if you will. It is not as easy as “it’s just a tool” in this case, especially with the VERY good point you made that it’s not who NEEDS to, but who would ever WANT to. Bravo. Couldn’t agree more. Be well.

Alex

🙂

mhay wrote: …his choice of ”HUNTING ARM”,,,,,,,not weapon . Weapons are tools used between men or countries . Folks in pursuit of wildlifedo not use weapons ,,, but , rather , SPORTING ARMS ,,,,be it rimfire , center fire or archery.

It’s something I still get yelled at about every time I teach a Hunter Ed course. I know it’s a rifle or bow, but I got yelled at too many times by a DS in Fort Jackson so it’s hard not to call anything that you can make go bang a “weapon”. Anyway, I think most of us agree much more that we disagree. Just glad to have a place to post comments and read replies from folks that share my passion. Be well.

Alex

😀

I spent a lot of my younger years staying with and working with my aunt and uncle in eastern Colorado. They raised sheep and cattle.

Me and my dog are pretty much tight and there’s not a problem being so but she pretty much knows she’s not people and I’m not dog and she doesn’t stray, that’s a people thing when that happens.

I too like most animals, like David’s thinking though, I think some feline type critters ought to be named “barn cats” and stay in the barn.

Back to the beginning: when your livelihood, like sheep, lambs, calves, become threatened by predators whether they be wild animals or neighbor farmers John’s dogs packed up and killing sheep for the hell of it, they need to taken down. Nuisance feral animals can be and are harmful to the welfare of humans at times also.

But there’s a difference between removing pestilence and the wanton slaying of animals. Meanness or pleasure or whatever sickness it is, it ain’t right for those sickos to do it.

I’ve known folks that understand that their animals are work tools and treated well like any good craftsmen would do his tools and I’ve seen folks who treat animals like s#@& just because they could.

Years ago it was all over the news about a duck running around a park with an arrow stuck through it. Some idiot!!! Some idiot shooting the puppy!!

What causes this? Dunno? Is it because of lack of parenting? Too much exposure on TV, in movies, or the violent video games? Dunno? But I’m still standing by the thoughts of more people, more bad. More knowledge of such, you’d think, should warn us rather than give us the wrong ideas.

Refresh with the book “Lord of the Flies”. It pretty much tells us how we as humans tend to be for real.

If I catch a coyote trying to kill my dog,or my aunts sheep, or my neighbors goats, I’m killing the sucker and I dang sure ain’t gonna eat it. 😆

Truly it dont matter what we say or do intill we bring back personal responablity we are stuck with this kind of stuff.As a kid growing up I got alot of butt whoopings and I will not cry about it .I did wrong i got punished that dont happen now a days.guilty last meal problem solved .

Understand! My butt whoopins I see now as way more justified than at the time they happened. :D:D

It’s what you do right in your time, not what you do that you think you can get away with that counts.

Animal torture, abuse called a ‘regular practice’ within federal wildlife agency

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/12/animal-torture-abuse-called-regular-practice-within-federal-wildlife-agency/#ixzz2NM0iCLl7

There dang sure ain’t nothing right about this!

That’s incredible Ralph. I’ve heard about poachers doing that here with those big caged pig traps our animal control uses. The poachers do the rounds of the known traps and if a pig is inside they set their dogs on them. That is incredible that your government agents are doing that.

Makes me sick.