Ok.

sincerely,

– Edith.

George — I respectfully disagree, but am more interested in hearing what others have to say on this topic than in laying out my views. For now. Most important thing is not what we think about the various ticklish issues of hunting, but simply to think about them, and to think about why we think what we do, which too few among us do. Cheers, dave

Sorry for the tongue-in-cheek response above, George. Your post caught me at a moment where my ability to take anything seriously was minimal.

While I don’t believe that there is anything inherently wrong with the definition of the word “harvest,” I have come to have reservations about how a lot of wildlife mgmt. terminology has evolved to describe what I still view as a deeply personal act. For example, referring to what I do as “harvesting a resource” feels very sterile to me. This is something I’ve given a fair bit of thought to, and wrote a short essay about last winter which further explains my thoughts, if you’re interested:

The Words We Use

I have a lot less respect for an ear of corn than I do a wild living creature. Its really easy for me to decide to harvest an ear of sweet corn. But when I decide to kill, I wrestle with the decision even after 35 seasons. While game dept’s might have used the term harvest for years ,it still rubs me the wrong way. I do not believe we need to be ashamed of what we do. Let’s be honest, kill is a four letter word we should not be afraid to use.

Interesting thread. To DP’s point, I really don’t think I’ve thought about why I use the words I use. I don’t believe I’ve ever used the word harvest when referring to hunting. But, I don’t use the word kill very often – the word “kill” to me has a negative connotation that infers an act of malice or anger (although the correct word for that would be “murder”).

That may stem from my wife’s family being a group of non-hunters (not anti-hunters) and the reaction I see in their faces when talking about killing an animal. I’ve found that using other terms – and I use several now that I think about it – is less distasteful to them.

I find I use the term “took” a lot as in “I took a nice doe this morning”. I use “provide meat” a lot too as in “I was able to provide meat for the table the last couple of years”.

I don’t know if this is giving in to political correctness or not. I look at it as a small compromise to being able to tell stories to a bunch of non-hunters without inserting the “shock-factor” that they deem distasteful. I can say, my wife’s family loves hearing stories of the things I run across while in the woods and they even share in the meat it provides – it may go back to SmithHammer’s article that he linked to, they just don’t want to think about where it comes from (just like the wrapped meat on white styrofoam in the grocery).

One last point, going back to the malice comment, I do KILL coyotes and openly talk about it with my inlaws as coyotes have overran their place as well as mine. My inlaws are always wanting me to come over and quote “Kill ‘Em All”….but yet I don’t KILL deer….I might have to seek counseling if you guys keep posting these kind of questions on the forum!! Wow, I’ve thought too much (or not enough per DP’s post).
Mike. ❓

Okay.. I see this carry over from that other forum. Harvest is the term used in the context of conservation. We are all familiar with the Mortality – Birth & Death Rates of wild animals, and how that pertains to the Carrying Capacity of a given area (number of animals a habitat can maintain over time). That said, wild animals like trees and crops are a renewal resources. We “Harvest” take, consume renewal resources. but don’t we have to KILL the animal first???? Ahh.. Archery Season cannot get here soon enough. Too much time on the computer!!! :shock::P:lol:

Not being one that is offended by those using the term “harvest”, not in the least, I will still add a thought or two.

No offense, George but while a great many, like yourself, use the term “harvest” as a norm and have for decades, there ARE those that have switched to the term to be “politically correct”……or at least it seems that way IMHO.

I’ve no problem with the term KILL, and use it and always have.

Somehow, taking the life of a living creature and considering all that goes with it before and after the shot…….harvest just doesnt QUITE fit the bill, but again…..just for me.

Others use what you will as long as the same respect for the animal exists. I know for a fact, George, that NO ONE has more respect for the animals than you from a decade of seeing your posts elsewhere so that is not the issue nor the case here.

IMHO…..terms used for many things accross the country are nothing more than simply the terms used by fathers and uncles and friends as one grows up for that locality. I feel this is normally the case here but, as I said, SOME have changed and its not the use of “harvest” that offends me somewhat, but the REASON that they STOPPED using the term “kill” that is my issue.

For me, that someone ELSE may wish for me to change any term to fit THEIR standards is not acceptable. In most cases the start of such “demands” is founded in a non hunter or non hunting group and they will NOT in any way, if I have a say so, change what I do or what I call it.

In my locality, you “harvest” things you have planted, nurtured and harvested when the time was ripe for personal use.

Now…….no offense to those DOING so, IMO the term “harvest” WOULD be (at least more so) applicable for those doing that with private lands, controlled herds, culling, “letting grow” etc etc. THAT IS…..IMO only…….GROWING your own buck to your standards and the person is, indeed, HARVESTING the results of his work and time ( and usually a chitload of money!). It’s still killing a living beast but at least is reaping seeds sewn so to speak.

Yep, I’m old, stuck in my ways and a buck “grown” in such a manner has ZERO interest to me……regardless of the inches on his head. I’m entitled to think this way as much as those not agreeing have the right to think their way.

We don’t, won’t, and hardly ever have ever agreed as a whole on any single subject.

This particular subject IMO is not the use of the term but rather the reason (for those that HAVE switched) someone feels there is some “necessity” to do so.

Perhaps, for me, I can best put it this way. I am not reaping the seeds I have sewn when out hunting free ranging deer. I have only control of time spent, what I shoot, or don’t and what is there…..is there, even if I did not exist.

Therefore…..with respect and yes LOVE……..I KILL animals I hunt but have no problem with others using the term they wish……as long it is THEIR decision and thoughts that was used to decide the accuracy of the term.

IF “harvest” is used as an effort to no longer use the term Kill to somehow “desensitize” the entire action, then yes, I have a problem with that but that also doesn’t apply to all that USE “harvest” so an argument is moot.

George, I will repectfully applaud any animal you harvest just as you would do the same for those that I may kill.

To us it’s a no brainer and simply letters forming a word. I doubt you and I view the process and end result a bit differently……regardless of our chosen term.

I invite anyone giving you grief over using the term “harvest” to look a bit deeper at your efforts …….and perhaps a bit deeper within themselves.

NONE Of us have the authority to dictate to others over important things in life…..let alone something so trivial.

It is the heartfelt respect for the actions of the hunt and taking of game that tells the true story, not a few letters of our alphabet that we personally use to label it.

God Bless! and good luck in PA, George!

Steve Sr.

George D. Stout wrote: It kind of shows how the mindset has changed over a period of time.

We don’t want to go there, George. 😯

The list of things fitting THAT would be a long one.

Seems I recall my Dad biotching about “how things and people have changed and are trying to change what has been around forever” in his later years.

I can identify!!!

God Bless
Steve Sr.

George, I agree with everything you have said.

If I kill an animal, I then must “Harvest” it. Meaning “tag it” claim it into my possession. As a student of wildlife management I can tell you the laws about “possession” regarding game are pretty straight-forward and explicit.

My interpretation of Harvest – means to take into my possession, claim it, and process it somehow. For the record, in many states including my own, “all game must be prepared for human consumption” where applicable. “Wanton” killing is against the law.

George/SteveMcD, I like your way of thinking…I now feel comfortable using the term “harvest” because that is what we’re truly doing (along with killing) and, for me, it isn’t disrespectful in any way to the animal OR to the people listening to the story…the best of both worlds. Good thread. Mike.

PS: SteveMcD, I also agree….too much time on the computer, let’s go hunting!! 😀

I don’t like it. To me the term harvest , as related to wildlife, implies an anthropocentric view of nature. We sow it, we manage it, we harvest it. Now if that’s what we’re doing – as in the case of stocked fisheries, shooting preserves, etc, which effectively reduces “wildlife” to the status of cattle – then harvest is the correct term. But when it comes down to wild, free range, free born, fair chase nature then I don’t think harvest is applicable. State wildlife agencies use the term commonly because they think of game species as a commodity or crop of sorts to be managed and manipulated to meet both biological and social needs and desires. To me, harvest implies thinking of wildlife as simply a renewable resource to be used to meet our needs and wants. But wildlife is so much more. All species have inherent values irrespective of how we may or may not use them. Wheat’s inherent value is to provide us with bread. If we didn’t eat it we would have no use for it. By using the term harvest, we disregard all those splendid, complex and interrelated virtues or wildlife and focus on how those animals are useful to us. Not saying that everyone that uses the term is anthropocentric. Just a different way of thinking about it.

Clay Hayes wrote: State wildlife agencies use the term commonly because they think of game species as a commodity or crop of sorts to be managed and manipulated to meet both biological and social needs and desires. To me, harvest implies thinking of wildlife as simply a renewable resource to be used to meet our needs and wants.

Exactly. I think that sums up a large part of the problem I have with that kind of terminology.

But if I take a step back form my own opinion on the matter, it’s probably also good to not get too hung up on debating semantics. Intent and attitude are what really matter. And I’m pretty sure everyone on this board probably has a lot more in common than different where that’s concerned.

It’s time to hunt.

Smithhammer –
“Intent and Attitude are what really matter” — Exactly!
Scout

Clay Hayes wrote: I don’t like it. To me the term harvest , as related to wildlife, implies an anthropocentric view of nature. We sow it, we manage it, we harvest it….. .

Clay, on the larger scale that is exactly what we are doing. I see that Mr. P is being politely silent because I know he has a lot to say about this subject, if he wanted to. There is a book written by Cynthia Gray, “Hunting & Fishing A God Given Responsibility”. That puts things in perspective in a Judeo-Christian sense.

HOWEVER. the fact is.. Man through development expansion and population explosion has already ALTERED the environment, and as a result, has a responsibility to mange game populations for good of wildlife and man. To denty the concept of “Harvesting” is the same as saying Hunting really isn’t an effective wildlife management tool. And if that is what we are acknowledging, then we have pretty much lost the argument to support hunting altogether.

I highly recomend to all members reading this post, to check out Smithhammers “the words we use” — excellent disertation on this subject. I wish I could write that well. I am afraid I agree with Smithhammer in my Heart and Mr Steve McD with my head. If we want to keep very much of the wild places, that are left – We all better start working at it { just sent in my App for BH&A}. So much habitat has been crowded out in my short time on the planet — well it is really scary and disapointing to me.
Scout

I don’t care so much as to what I call it in conversation, harvest vs hunting vs killing. To me the important point to get across to the other person in the conversation is why I desire to harvest / hunt / kill for myself. For getting through to most, I have found that this simple statement works best. I, nor my wife, care to eat meat from some pen raised animal that has had antibiotics pumped into it during it’s lifetime. I know that the deer that I shoot in my back yard are clean from this practice, and thus the factory meat I avoid I leave to someone else. No one can make any guaranty about factory slaughtered meat, even the USDA. For years, we have fed our families with wild game from our land and vegetables from our garden. We don’t offer anyone any apologies or even perceived politically correct lingo about it. They either understand it, or they don’t.

Cyberscout – thx for joining BHA. I’m impressed at how quickly this organization is growing.

Wicanner – Amen! With all the talk about trendy “locavorism” lately, I’m disappointed at how little you hear about hunting being included in the conversation of “eating locally” (maybe because it’s essentially a yuppie trend, primarily endorsed by urbanites or recent transients?) Even compared to a local, grass-fed cow raised right in the same valley that I live in, a local wild deer or elk represents a meal with significantly less environmental impact. Hunters were “locavores” long before it was ever the hip thing to do in Bozeman or Aspen…

IMO, the use of “harvest” by hunters is often taken by non-hunters as an attempt to conceal the reality of what we do. I think it does hunting a disservice to use it. We should be proud of what we do, for all kinds of reasons, and we shouldn’t risk people thinking we’re not. We need the support of non-hunters if we are to continue to enjoy the hunting opportunities that we currently have.

Wow:!:

WOW:!:

My new friend D. Petersen, enlightened me to:

“…to sum up, one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted. ” – Jose’ Ortega Y Gasset in “Heartsblood” DP, pg 34.

I have taken to Dave’s works (articles/interviews/posts-and most recently the above & “Racks” ) after first reading posts here. I must say, I am now questioning my entire

hunting/outdoors beliefs, personal ethos etc -ALL for the
good mind you! Including my long standing
membership/participations in the very organizations I sign
off each post with. I believe in the, or what I believe (
HOPE :?:) )to be the over-arching missions of all these and
other orgs. I love the wild. I love the game ( literally,
figuratively, euphemistically however you’d like to take
it). All the animals. Those I pursue and those I don’t. I
want to protect them, the wild places in which they live. I
want to protect us, collectively, legal ethical hunters, no
matter their weapon of choice.

There are members of these organizations that do things that I personally find morally and ethically reprehensible. I like to ( need to?) think of them as the bad apples that, hopefully God willing, don’t spoil the whole bunch. Some of these things are condoned, even encouraged by those in these organizations ( specifically game “ranches”). I myself have been to one or two of these places with a specific goal in hand. I specifically ( on 3 occasions) have gone to SHOOT/KILL (NOT HUNT:!:) boar with the specific intent of testing broadhead/pistol load on a live, tough animal. All meat butchered for my family and friends. I killed those animals. I’ve been a hunter since I first walked the pheasant thickets w my dad at 6 years old (44 in few weeks). I’ve killed scores of deer, bear,upland birds, turkey (continued next post)

I am continuing as I really HATE how I get kicked out then can’t navigate inside the “typing window”!!!!! 👿

ANYWAY…..

….scads of African animals etc etc.

Those animals were not harvested. They were killed. I too have started to use “taken” ” harvested” etc in place of killed. Why? I assume a bow to politically correct bs. I’ve always been one who believes the worst thing we can do is give the anti whackos (the animal rights folks) ammo to use against us and our culture. That is so driven home by today’s Outdoor Media. They do a huge disservice, most, not all, that I don’t even think they realize – maybe I’m being naive here. I’ve always had an uneasy feeling about some of the shows on these channels. In Heartsblood DP beautifully sums up that uneasiness. In the most recent publication of a national hunting club they praise so-called ” comedic ” programming in the “outdoor genre of reality tv”. Now the program they mention specifically I find unwatchable on multiple levels. It’s just crap. However the crap is only part of it. The buffoonery of it’s characters is the EXACT Elmer Fudd-like caricature of hunters that feeds the most horrific untruths about all of us. And these fools think it’s entertaining!?!

When the moment of truth comes, or the moment where the live/death decision is made an amazing transformation overtakes my very being. I become a predator. I feel like I’m one in a long line of predators through the eons who, keenly, systematically and with cunning and definitive action take the life before me. Countless times over the years that feeling, that transformation has overtaken me and the hold is palpable and permanent. That being said, I have never, not once, not felt a tinge of remorse, even a tear of sadness, kneeling over my fallen prey, stroking it’s coat, my nostrils filling with the unmistakable scent of a rutting buck, a foraging bear, the honey scent of a springbok”s raised back hairs in it’s spiritual departure of the savannah. My connection is firmly made with those before us, 1000’s of years of wild humanity.

I’ve not harvested anything. I’ve killed it, I’ve hunted it. Taken? Yes. I’ve taken it’s life.

Ad I’ll continue to do so, as my family before me and my sons with and long after me, hopefully with their sons and daughters.

I guess we all need to understand how and why we do what we do. We all need to cherish and protect this “thing of ours”. To me that is the ultimate goal. I’ll always feel remorse along with the love I have for my prey. And hope and pray my fellow hunters will do the same.

Be well all. >>>–>

John

JMSMITHY… you could Hunt. You could Kill it. And you could leave it there. That would mean you did not harvest it. Because you did not USE it. And in most States that would be breaking the law.

As a former student of wildlife management AND wildlife law enforcement, and now an instructor. I can tell you this Harvest – Possession stuff is in the courts all the time. KILL. TAG. POSSESSION. HARVEST. All have very explicit meanings. And you need to understand them. If you don’t and you get a wildlife citation from youe friendly game warden. I assure you, after the Judge leaves your wallet a little ligther. You Will understand what this terms mean. :P:lol:

As usual… George got this Right, from the start. 8)

I agree Steve….I apologize if I didn’t make clear the fact that I, or any of my close hunting compadres, have never once taken, killed, harvested etc etc ( 🙂 ) any animal which was not fully utilized. My family loves the meat (especially from a naturely sage marinated pronghorn 😀 ), in fact wild game is really the only red meat my wife prefers. Always the hides are tanned and put to use in everything from garments to gear. If I have a season in which I get more game than we as a family can use (including giving away to extended family and friends) we foot the butchering bill and donate all meat to various soup kitchens, FHFH chapters etc – we even have (here in NJ :!::!:) a high school in Sussex County that encourages hunters to drop all the deer they’d like to donate, whole – gutted only – to an onsite 24 hour cooler. They then use them as part of their FFA program, teaching the students as part of their curriculum to skin, butcher and actually deliver and sometimes prepare venison for a number of homeless shelters, soup kitchens, church charities etc etc).

I have also seen , unfortunately the opposite extreme of the horrendous, slovenly behavior that not only fuels those animal rightists (as opposed to animal welfarists – of which we are -again…sorry for the numerous plugs – but you REALLY have to read “Heartsblood”…)that seek to end all hunting but actually made me sick and question my own ethics as if I belonged to the same “club” as the slobs who have literally killed (actually I’d use murdered here) trophy bucks, on private/municipal property here in my area and actually left the carcass and literally sawed the heads off at the base of the neck/head junction.

To Steve’s point – these vermin should not only be ticketed etc but IMHO, imprisoned as well as a public campaign illustrating that these scum have absolutely no resemblance to any legitimate hunters.

I guess my point is that we should be proud of what we do, who we are, what we as hunters represent as the cornerstone of humanity and human-ness. We live our nature, we do not deny it, we embrace it as well as all the critters we love to interact with, no matter what the outcome of that day’s or season’s hunt…

JM… Me too. I understand and agree with you as well. No apology necessary. I value your opinion and can tell you have a lot of spirit and emotion on this topic like many of us do.

As a never-ending student and instructor I have read most of Dave’s books, as well as Jim Prowitz, Jose Ortega, Aldo Leupold and some others.

I believe we are kindred spirits in this respect.

Where abouts in New Jersey are you? I hunted Morris and Sussex counties for quite a few years in the 70’s and 80’s. My favorite was the Canister Resevoir area in Veronn and on 517 north of the Jorgensen’s Inn on Rt 23. I grew up hunting in Kinnelon-Taylortown area up by the Taylortwon Reservoir (what is now, Pyramid Mountain County park. That was 40 years ago. I have often thought it might be worth while to get a New Jersey license again.

Good Hunting!
Steve

Im with George. I use the word Harvest. I feel (note the word I there…not talkin for anyone else) the to say I harvested a deer pays much more respect to the deer than to just say I killed it.

I didnt just “mow it down and leave it on the ground to rot”…I harvested it, to use to nourish my family.

Yes, I have to kill it first…but thats just a part of it. As George stated, to harvest something is to put it to use.

we dont harvest the grass each weekend. We mow it down.
we dont mow down our corn though, we harvest it.

Its not whitewashing the act, its holding it in reverence. (if that makes sense)

I can see the topic from both sides and everyone has valid points.

I don’t really care for the term harvest because I didn’t care for it, tend to it, feed it.

I don’t use the term kill much either, it strikes me as harsh and blunt.

I like to focus on the hunt more than the result but use the word take or took as the end of my season. I hunt hard and hope to take the life of my quarry, I take every piece usable of my quarry, I take pride in the fact that I’m a hunter not a killer or farmer.

I suggest that everyone involved in this discussion who is open-minded and serious about the topic, whatever your views, read Bruce Smithhammer’s brief essay “The Words We Use” (the link is fourth post from the top in this thread) and then resume with that as a base. For me, it’s time for the evening hunt. Our garden is about ready to harvest. That’s my wife’s part. My part is to kill an elk, if I can.

As a comic aside, I can’t count the times in my life that I’ve told nonhunters, usually women, that I’m going hunting and they respond, “Good luck, I hope you catch something.” I just smile and say thank you. 😀

David Petersen wrote: As a comic aside, I can’t count the times in my life that I’ve told nonhunters, usually women, that I’m going hunting and they respond, “Good luck, I hope you catch something.”

LOL – The other part to that is that they sometimes say “are you going to drag it home?”

Yep, I’m hoping to ‘drag’ it home. 😀

David Petersen wrote: I suggest that everyone involved in this discussion who is open-minded and serious about the topic, whatever your views, read Bruce Smithhammer’s brief essay “The Words We Use”

Well Done Bruce, very well written.

Well Dave, I hope you caught something 😀 !

Steve, you are in my neck of the NJ woods my friend…In fact Pyramid Mountain is my second choice for my son and I to pull permit for deer management program operated by Morris County Park system. I’m fortunate enough to have approx 400 acres in various pieces of private land to hunt here in NJ (unheard of I know…I’m VERY fortunate) but trying to do our part as part of the county management plan. Want my son to understand the entire cycle of what the whitetail is, and what has become here in NJ…Hunters have gotten SOME encouraging stats of late (put aside how indivuals feel about managemenbt and some of the various “hunting” orgs) – here in NJ bowhunters particularly have made enormous inroads in supplanting the hired killers (under the guise of deer Management Companies who simply come in, bait and shoot as many as possible with, often, silenced firearms) through municipalities/ county parks etc allowing bowhunters to come in and help reduce numbers. We take the meat, or donate depending on each hunters situation, as well as all trophy parts etc….

Anyway Steve, that’s what I’m doing at Pyramid Mountain. I live in Morris County (Plains actually) and hunt routinely the Denville/Chester/Newton overall areas. Anytime you’d like to join, shoot me a pm and we’ll get together…Good thing about NJ hunting, the deer numbers are such that if you hunt all legal weapons (bow,MZ,Shotgun) you literally could take up to 2 antlerless deer, per day from this Sat through Feb 11 2012….Grab a license and drop me a note my friend! 😀

Steve Sr makes a good point…..there is a difference between someone who has used the term forever (I’m shocked that PA regs has used it since 1929), and someone using it to appear PC.

I have nothing against ALL PC verbiage….I have no desire to offend folks “just because”….but with game animals, I “hunt”, “kill”, and use them as food. When discussing hunting with others, I may use sentences like “We generally eat 4 deer per year”, as opposed to “We harvested 4 deer last year”.

So, if a guy hunts in another country, does that make him an International Harvester? 😆

Sorry, but I can never resist the temptation for a little fun word-play. 😛

Only if you wear “International” red!!:D

David Petersen wrote: So, if a guy hunts in another country, does that make him an International Harvester? 😆

And this weeks’ “Chortling Chimp” award goes to…