OK,,, Now I’m gonna really show my ignorance…

What the heck is HFOC?

I undersatnd FOC/EFOC/UEFOC tuning, but have never heard of HFOC tuning.

One other question. Since I havn’t seen the vidoe, who was doing the tuning part?

Troy

bully26 wrote: Hello ARCHERS!:D

I didn’t want to hijack crystalshrimp’s post so I just started my own.

Crystalshrimp and I had different ideas. I received my advice from Masters of the Barebow II(borrowed from crystalshrimp!), the bareshaft tuning portion. Watching it simply made sense so I began my tuning session with that in mind. C.S. had a different idea.

I have MBB II, and while I thought it was an excellent DVD, the bareshaft tuning portion was incomplete.

There’s a lot of talk about nock kick versus planing and point of impact. With respect to bare shafts, the nock kick is what creates the plaining (think of a boat rudder), thus leading to different points of impact for fletched versus bare shafts. With no fletching, a bare shaft cannot correct itself in flight.

What you don’t want to do is pay attention to how the bare shafts are sticking in the target, as the target media can cause them to stick in at odd angles. You want to compare where the bare shafts impact relative to the fletched arrows: nothing more, nothing less.

bully26 wrote: My question is… Why is FOC tuning different from HFOC tuning? To me flight is flight and impact is impact.

You’re correct. There is no difference. Physics is physics, and tuning principles don’t change based on what a calculator spits out regarding FOC. I’ve tuned arrows ranging from low to normal to extremely high FOC based on the Easton Tuning Guide and never had a problem.

My best advice on the subject, as always, is to download the Easton Tuning Guide, or read Adcock’s paraphrasing of the technique, and go with that. It’s worked just fine for decades, and is the gold standard for a reason

bully26 wrote: Sorry Troy. I should have said EFOC or UFOC.

Thank goodness,,, I was affraid someone had come up with another style of tuning. Three names for one style is enough.

Troy

I think if you really look at tuning, wether it be called FOC, EFOC or UEFOC you will see they are all the same.

The only real difference I can see is the more weight you put on the front the more minor details like tail kick come into play. Like I’ve said before, when I shot the std. FOC arrows I could make a bearshaft fly like it was fletched. The more weight I add the harder that part becomes. Even though the POI is still the same other things seem to stand out more.

Troy

bully26 wrote: J. Wesbrock

I watched arrow flight out to 12-15 yards and consistently arrow flight effected impact angle. While tuning, my arrows would consistently kick in a specific direction upon impact.
So… as long as the arrows are accurate, impact angle doesn’t matter? Shouldn’t the mass of the entire arrow impact as “stacked” as possible. Wouldn’t any deviation upon impact cause the tail of the arrow to be less of a factor?
I shortened my arrow and corrected the kick a little more but then ran out time.
Simply, I just don’t understand how impact of a bareshaft has no effect on a finished arrow.
Thanx in Advance

It is true that arrow flight can affect impact angle, but so can the target media itself. That’s why you can’t take how the arrow sticks in the target as gospel. Remember, it’s not the “how,” it’s the “where” that counts. If an arrow flies at an angle, it will veer off and impact away from your fletched shafts. But it can fly perfectly straight, hit the target, and kick to one side or the other. And while it’s easy to see an arrow plane if it veers a lot, there’s a reason why folks generally shy away from tuning by watching arrow flight. It encourages people to peek during the shot, which can create a whole mess of shooting problems.

bully26 wrote:
So… as long as the arrows are accurate, impact angle doesn’t matter? Shouldn’t the mass of the entire arrow impact as “stacked” as possible. Wouldn’t any deviation upon impact cause the tail of the arrow to be less of a factor?
I shortened my arrow and corrected the kick a little more but then ran out time.
Simply, I just don’t understand how impact of a bareshaft has no effect on a finished arrow.
Thanx in Advance

Bully26, I’m no expert and it took me a couple of readings of Adcocks guide to understand the principle so let me explain it the way I understood it to see if it clicks with you.
Using JW’s explanation of planing like a boat rudder I’m sure you can picture that if the arrow is flying at an angle it is going to plane toward where the point is aiming. The point you might be missing is that you want your bareshafts to group with your fletched shafts. So, if the bares and fletched group together, then your bareshafts have to be flying straight. If they were pitched in flight, they’d be grouping somewhere other than with the self-correcting fletched arrows. The nock kick after penetration can be induced by target imperfections, density, etc. You must make sure your bareshafts and fletched arrows group together.

While a bareshaft is not unstable in flight, it will have a tendancy to let the nock end oscillate. Oscillations would balance each other out making them group with fletched shafts. The oscillations can however cause the arrow to kick when it strikes the target since the nock would not be directly behind the point of impact. I hope this helps. Mike.

Okay, let me ask a simple sort of question and see if I can twist this up any more…
The object is to get the bare shaft to fly to the same place as the fletch shaft, right? Then you would already have fletched shafts that fly fine and why would you bare shaft?
Just for the record, I started bare shaft tuning a new set-up yesterday, so I’m on board. I’ll bare shaft til they fly right, then fletch a couple and compare??
Thanks for the continued explanations and patience.

dwcphoto wrote: Okay, let me ask a simple sort of question and see if I can twist this up any more…
The object is to get the bare shaft to fly to the same place as the fletch shaft, right? Then you would already have fletched shafts that fly fine and why would you bare shaft?
Just for the record, I started bare shaft tuning a new set-up yesterday, so I’m on board. I’ll bare shaft til they fly right, then fletch a couple and compare??
Thanks for the continued explanations and patience.

That’s an excellent question. Fletching basically serves two purposes: to correct for poor arrow flight, and to overpower the steering tendencies of a broadhead. With field points, you can group rather well with untuned arrows. As a matter of fact, the arrows I used to sucessfully compete with in NFAA Barebow were quite overspined. But put a broadhead on an out-of-tune arrow and you’ll see erratic wind planing.

Sometimes our eyes are not so good at picking up initial nock kick with fletched arrows before they correct, especially porpoising which kicks up and down in line with how we see the arrow’s trajectory. I have a good friend who’s exceptional at being able to tune by watching his fletched arrows. For him, bare shaft tuning simply confirms what he already knows. I wish my eyes were that good. After spending nearly 30 years in competitive shooting, and seeing countless examples of people who thought their corkscrew-flying arrows were tuned, I’m convinced my friend is by far the exception.

So the simple answer is this: because sometimes what we think we see isn’t what’s really happening.

Let me see if I can clear this tail wagging up.

If your seeing massive tail kick then your shaft is either still weak or has already gone stiff.

When I have a shaft with minor tail kick I usually stop and start comparing it to a fletched arrow.

I think most of the tail kick comes from having so much weight on front that it causes the shaft to flex way beyond the norm. Too weak of a shaft will flex way more than one with light point weight. If the shaft has gone stiff you will most likely see slight tail right then a jump to the left rather and a suttle drift.

Hopefully I’ve put this in a way that everyone can understand. If not all i can say is:

ED, HELP!!!!!!:lol:

Well fellas I have nothing of value to add but I am sure learning a lot. Thanks…and I am looking forward to Doc’s insights as well!

There’s a lot of talk about nock kick versus planing and
What you don’t want to do is pay attention to how the bare shafts are sticking in the target, as the target media can cause them to stick in at odd angles.

Ill try to explain what Bully26 is seeing. Eactime he shoots his target it seems that his arrows are being shot from an angle. He is hitting his target but his arrow all look like someone else is shooting them from a 45 degree angle. In his defense i can say that we are practicing on hay bales that have been shot hundreds if not thousands of times. ( my shots were dead on but after impact the tail end of the shaft kicked straight up) would moving our nocks up or down help?

Let me ask a question. Are both of you trying to deside what your shafts are doing by looking at the end results of the shot or are you watching the shaft in flight.

If your trying to deside what to do by looking at the end results then I suggest you get a new foam target. I never judge my setup by the way I see my shaft is sticking in the target. I watch the arrow in flight. The only thing I judge on when it comes to target impact is which side of the line my shaft ends up on. If it’s consistantly right of my spot/line then I trim the shaft (ever so slightly) to stiffen it (remember I’m right handed). If it’s left of the spot/line then I add point weight or start over with another shaft.

Getting a fletched like flight out of a bareshaft with heavy point weight is harder than finding hens teeth.

I want say it can’t be done, because every once in a while I will have that perfect release and wala, it happens. I just want to get it as close as possible and then let the fletching handle my screwups.

Troy

Crystalshrimp wrote:

There’s a lot of talk about nock kick versus planing and
What you don’t want to do is pay attention to how the bare shafts are sticking in the target, as the target media can cause them to stick in at odd angles.

Ill try to explain what Bully26 is seeing. Eactime he shoots his target it seems that his arrows are being shot from an angle. He is hitting his target but his arrow all look like someone else is shooting them from a 45 degree angle. In his defense i can say that we are practicing on hay bales that have been shot hundreds if not thousands of times. ( my shots were dead on but after impact the tail end of the shaft kicked straight up) would moving our nocks up or down help?

If you’re seeing bare shafts group with fletched shafts, but suspect they are not flying straight, back up five to ten yards and shoot again. The closer you get to being in tune, the further it takes for the bare shaft to plane because it’s not leaving with bow with as much kick. As you move back, your tuning becomes a magnifying glass with increasing power — it lets you see things in greater detail.

If your bare shafts are leaving the bow tail high but impacting with your fletched shafts, back up and see if they start impacting low. If you’re shooting only bare shafts at a spot (i.e. not comparing their impact to fletched shatfs) then all bets are off. Bare shaft tuning works by comparing bare shafts (which won’t correct in flight) to fletched ones (which will correct in flight).

Bully26,

I’m glad your asking these questions. It’s making me remember how all this tuning stuff really works.

I’m one of those that can do it fairly easily. However, when it comes to explaining it to someone else I get tounge tied and crossed eyed.

Just a week or so ago I had everything working right. The very next day it was as if I had never even tried to set things up right. For the life of me I can’t tell you want was going on. To get my arrows to fly I had to add another spacer to my sight window. Afterwards I shot as good as I ever had. The very next day, lord knows what happened,,,,.
I had to remove the spacer. Guess all I can say is $#!# happens. Since that day I havn’t had enough of a problem that afew minutes of shooting wouldn’t correct everything.

Troy

Crystalshrimp wrote:

my shots were dead on but after impact the tail end of the shaft kicked straight up) would moving our nocks up or down help?

Correct. Lowering your nocking point should bring that nock down. That’s ASSUMING that it’s not those worn out hay bales causing the nock to kick. Either a new foam target or a big pile of loose, fine grain (masonary) sand are the best targets for seeing nock kick.

Ed

Troy Breeding wrote: I never judge my setup by the way I see my shaft is sticking in the target. I watch the arrow in flight. The only thing I judge on when it comes to target impact is which side of the line my shaft ends up on. If it’s consistantly right of my spot/line then I trim the shaft (ever so slightly) to stiffen it (remember I’m right handed). If it’s left of the spot/line then I add point weight or start over with another shaft.

That’s about as concise as ‘how to do it’ can be stated.

Ed

J.Wesbrock wrote: If you’re seeing bare shafts group with fletched shafts, but suspect they are not flying straight, back up five to ten yards and shoot again. The closer you get to being in tune, the further it takes for the bare shaft to plane because it’s not leaving with bow with as much kick. As you move back, your tuning becomes a magnifying glass with increasing power — it lets you see things in greater detail.

That’s solid advice. Start tuning up close and work your way back.

Ed