steel inserts 2012-08-02T21:21:13+00:00

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  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409
    #7193 |

    Has anyone ever made their own. I was playin around with some 2018s the other night and found that the 8″ nails I have fit perfectly inside. I can chuck it in my lathe and trim the nail head to OD of shaft, and drill center to accept the screwin broadheads. All for less than $0.60 each

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    Let me add that before I go to all the work, I will play with these shafts to see if they tune well for my bow.

    was mainly passing along my little discovery. Wondering if anyone else had a crazy thought like that?

  • raymond coffman
    Member
    Post count: 551

    Handi-

    Sounds Like an interesting experiment, should definitely get you efoc and a strong shaft! If you are successful with these shafts hunting, you will be able to say –” you nailed em clean , Pilgrim” –haha

    Scout

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    Well after I got through working on the 5th wheel, getting ready for a 200 mile trip next week, and finding its going to cost me $500 I dont really have, i took some time and measured the nails.

    they are 6″ nails and weigh 688 gr so am guessing about 100gr per inch. More later.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    OK got one made today, just for kicks, to see how heavy it really is and how hard it would be to make. Turns out it’s not too hard. It’s a little time consuming, for the first one, be relatively easy.

    I made the insert 2″ over all, and it came out at 181gr, once it was drilled and tapped. So if I wanted one at 200gr, I would make the shank 2″ not counting the head.

    Here’s some pics of it.

    First one shows the insert installed with a 125gr target point partly inside. The point does screw all the way in, this was just for reference. There is another 125 above to compare.

    The next pic (crappy 0ne) is TRYING to show the inside, and the 8-32 threads, but it didn’t come out too well.

    The third pic shows the insert removed, laying next to a whole 6″ nail, and the 125gr point next to it, for overall comparison.

    Ok, now the numbers. Before I go any farther, the 28″ 2018 that I had (longest one) shows too stiff of spine. Not sure if a 200gr head would be enough, or even if that much head is needed. You guys will know more than me on that.

    The arrow, fletched, is 28″ long, from nock groove, to back of head. The arrow, minus the insert weighed 364gr, the insert is 181gr and the head 125. I rounded these numbers a little. The total arrow weigh, with insert and head installed, weighs 669. With the balance point being 8.1875″ (8 3/16″) from back of head. I have no idea what the FOC percentage is, hopefully one of you will.

    I will look for some full length 2018″ to play with, and I am guessing something in the neighborhood of 30″ might be the final number, will have to wait and see on that one.

    Anyway, there ya have it. Just an FYI kinda of a “hmmm, I wonder if” πŸ™‚

  • raymond coffman
    Member
    Post count: 551

    Handirifle –

    Go to Ashby Library here on the site, and look up FOC chart

    If I understood your No#s correctly it looks to be a little over 20.5% foc–

    keep at it, looks like you are on the right track for your home made “Heavy Inserts”

    Scout.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    cyberscout wrote: Handirifle –

    Go to Ashby Library here on the site, and look up FOC chart

    If I understood your No#s correctly it looks to be a little over 20.5% foc–

    keep at it, looks like you are on the right track for your home made “Heavy Inserts”

    Scout.

    OK will check that out. Seems I remember somewhere seeing what Dr. Ed, considered “ideal FOC” so will look for that too. I got to thinking, I might just make one up at 300gr and see what that does to the spine.

    Does a heavy head effect spine more than a same weight insert, since the head is “out there” farther?

  • raymond coffman
    Member
    Post count: 551

    yes, heavier head effects spine. all of it will have an effect – depending “how much? how long” and where”?

    Basically as I understand it, as I am new to this also [only been at it a little over a year+ and Doc, Dave or Troy hopefully will chime in – if I get off track].You want an arrow weight of 650+ [ bone penetration thresh-hold]over 20% efoc and as much as you can get! 30% + is better.. using carbon I have managed 730gr arrows with 28.5% efoc pretty easily,I have not tried alum.

    Scout

  • WebmotherWebmother
    Admin
    Post count: 794

    Moving to Friends of FOC forum. πŸ˜€

  • Ed Ashby
    Member
    Post count: 808

    I’m following this with interest too. Early on I tried working with aluminum shafts, trying to get EFOC/UEFOC, but they proved to be far more difficult than carbon shafts to tune to (what I consider) ‘perfect flight’. It can be done, but they just seem far more difficult to work with than carbon shafts. That notwithstanding, the ability to make your own steel insert and custom tailor the weight gives infinite tuning possibilities. Doing so at an economical cost is fantastic.

    Ed

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    Robin.

    sorry about that, I wondered wh:Den that would happen πŸ˜€

    Scout

    yes, I knew it would affect spine, just wasn’t sure if it was a greater affect being more out front or not, prob is.

    Dr. Ashby

    Am honored

  • raymond coffman
    Member
    Post count: 551

    Handirifle —

    “greater effect being more out front” –Yes

    Scout.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    Well, just went by the hardware store, looking for something larger than the 6″ nails, but the next thing I saw was 8″ that were 3/8″ dia. Much too big for my purposes.

    By the way, the 6″ were only $0.10 each. Not a bad material cost. I did pick up a 5/16″ steel rod to try the same experiment with 2117s, but doing the math in my head, that is only 20/64 dia while the shafts will be 21/64 dia. That is IF the steel rod is accurate.

    I might just send off an order for some 2018s and some heavier heads, to see how this all works out. I read Dr. Ashby’s article about the head “pulling” the arrow through and it makes perfect sense to me. Not sure if a 200gr head would soften a 28″ 2018 enough to tune properly, but it might with a longer one.

    In case you’re wondering why that shaft, it goes back to the smaller diameter making for less resistance. A 1922 or similar (if one was ever made) would be better yet, but do not think anything that small dia would have been made.

  • raymond coffman
    Member
    Post count: 551

    Easton still makes Gamegetters in 1816 -1916 & 2013 according to their catalog.

    scout.

  • Troy Breeding
    Member
    Post count: 994

    Easton used to make a 2020.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    cyberscout wrote: Easton still makes Gamegetters in 1816 -1916 & 2013 according to their catalog.

    scout.

    The 1916, I believe would be way to weak for a 54# bow, the 2013’s MIGHT work.

    I think the 2020’s would be stiffer yet, than the 2018’s I am working with.

    I am considering ordering 6 of the 2018’s at full length to test on. I would also order some 175-200gr field points at the same time. An extra 50-75gr out front I feel would soften the spine a bit more than if I made my insert longer, at least based on Dr. Ashby’s writings.

    After reading his stuff, I could easily add an extra inch, in fact, I could thread the back end of the one I made and add another 100gr to the back, but I do believe the extra weight out front might achieve the desire effect, easier.

    Now that I think about it, I could make my own 200gr field point, at least for this test, hmmmm. The steel would be to soft compared to commercial made ones, but hardness isn’t a concern for this test.

    Maybe I will try to make the point, AND an add on 100gr to the back of the insert to test each one separately for tuning effect.

    More on that later…………

    Who would have thought so much could be gleaned from a 10 cent nail?:D

    This is what my mind does to me. I bet for every idea that I act on, like I am doing, at least 10 more come into my head, but I never do anything with, other than keeping my ear canals cleaned out with them.:lol:

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    OK got back outside to my workshop for some more playing around, at least that what my wife calls it.:D I call it creative masterminding :shock::roll:

    I actually made a field point (have pics to prove it) but it got dark before I could shoot it so that will have to wait till tomorrow.

    So here we go. I started with the 5/16″ steel rod I got. I cut a 2 1/2″ piece from it, as a WAG, and weighed it, cam out at 366gr. Just a tad overweight, since I am shooting for a 200gr tip. But overweight is easier to fix than underweight!

    Here is the first steps of the job. I matched length of the 125gr field point shank, including the threaded portion, at .425″. It is cut in two steps, the non-threaded section is .200″ in dia, just like the other points I measured. The threaded portion is cut to .160″ dia, again matching the factory points, in prep for the 8-32 threads.

    Next I used the lathe to hold my thread die, cause if I try it freehand I will mess it up for sure. I threaded it to 8-32, just like factory stuff. This went better than expected. I am NOT a machinist, I am self taught and know about 1/100 of 1% of what a real machinist would know.

    So, at this juncture, it still has a flat nose (no pic of that) and I weighed it, still comes out at 307gr, so I took another WAG and cut about 3/8″ off, and proceeded to taper the nose, to at least resemble a field point.

    This finished out at 223gr, so I decided to leave it there for now.

    And lastly I show the insert and the super long 223gr field point screwed together.

    So, some more numbers, the finished arrow with the new point installed weighs 766gr with a new balance point at 7 1/16″ (7.0625″) from back of head, it was 8 3/16″ before. So that makes it approximately 27% FOC or EFOC I suppose.

    It seems a very heavy shaft for a 54# bow. I can see Dr. Ashby’s point (and others as well) in using a lighter weight bare shaft, ie carbons, to accomplish the same percentage with a somewhat lighter complete arrow, but if I plant this in the side of an elk, I have no doubts it would plow it’s way in deep. Rather a broadheaded arrow of same weight.

    I would guess an arrow weighing between 650-700gr would be sufficient.

    So tomorrow, I will bare-shaft test this rig and see what happens. If this is not enough to bring the tail end back where it belongs, I will go ahead and order some longer shafts to start with. The head portion of the filed point is about 2 1/4″, I say about cause I never measured it after I cut it. Not gonna bother till I see how it shoots. In retrospect, it is most likely about the same length as a similar weight broadhead, it just looks odd compared to what I am used to.

  • Stephen Graf
    Member
    Post count: 2112

    Pretty Work! What kind of lathe do you have?

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    Thanks. It’s just a Harbor Freight 7×12.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    OK went back to bareshafting this thing, and found a combo that works with the heavy insert and point, by cutting the arrow down to 27 1/8″. to get very near perfect bare flight. Still a little nock high, but acceptable.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    I know this is an OLD thread, but I do not think I ever posted my results with this setup.

    A few months after building some of these arrows, my sister in law informed me they had a herd (30+) wild pigs tearing up their property, late at night. We got a depredation permit, allowing me to hunt them at night. A couple nights later, I got to their place about 2 AM, and posted myself in the shadow of a tree. The shadow was due to a full moon.

    About an hour later I hear all sorts of snorting and racket, and within 15 minutes there is about 10 of all sizes having a good old time within 30yds of me. Being dressed in black, and staying to the shadows, I moved to less than 10 yds from what seemed like a “medium” sized hog. I wanted what I thought would be a good eating size pig (usually 100lbs or less). Bear in mind I have never hunted pigs before.

    When this hog worked itself into the light so I could see a silhouette, I drew back my 54# Ebay recurve, and 700gr 2018, high FOC, aluminum arrow, with 300gr single bevel head, and let fly.

    Man did that pig squeal. He would take 2 steps and fall, 2 steps and fall, till he got out of sight.

    Prior to that, my sister in law and her husband were sleeping with their window open and didn’t even know I was there. ALL their lights came on after the shot :D.

    Her husband came out with a bright work light and I tracked the hog down, 30yds away, laying next to a big oak tree. Still alive but mortality wounded. I put a second arrow in him to end it. He got up walked about 5 ft and dropped dead.

    Here’s the report. Those heavy arrows are amazing. The first shot went in right behind the left front shoulder, right into 1/2″ shoulder gristle plate, then through the left side rib, through both lungs and broke the right side rib, lodging itself halfway through.

    So much for my selecting a medium size hog, this guy was over 300bs. The scale we used maxed at 300 and it almost broke it. Believe it or not, there were some that APPEARED a LOT bigger.

    I have a picture, but it would not meet TBH posting standards, since it was right after I field dressed it.

  • Ed Ashby
    Member
    Post count: 808

    πŸ˜€ Love it. Performed like a well built arrow should. – Ed

  • Ptaylor
    Member
    Post count: 529

    Cool story Handirifle. My friend down your way gets depredation permits and hunts them at night too. Does pretty well that way. I missed this whole nail-steel-insert building post. It’s pretty cool.

  • handirifle
    Member
    Post count: 409

    Thanks, I’m kind of a perpetual tinkerer. One of those people that “can’t leave well enough alone”. πŸ™‚

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